Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 07-22-2002, 08:06 PM

FastFalcon couldn't even come close to an answer when I asked him this. Perhaps some of you other theists can include this in your witness attempts.

If the God of the NT loves everyone and wants the whole world to know him, then why would the God of the OT be so exclusive. Why would he choose to play favorites? Such behavior seems contradictory to that of an omniscient, omnipresent being who only loves everyone on the planet. If he loves everyone on the planet, why would he have the Jewish people do such nasty things to the unchosen people?

The basic question is, what is the logic of this God, as portrayed by Christians, for having a "chosen people" and playing favorites.

Please show all work.

King Arthur · 07-23-2002, 05:20 AM

I know. My favorite is this one from Romans:

Quote:

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

11 For God does not show favoritism.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

Jayhawker Soule · 07-23-2002, 05:56 AM

For what it's worth: <a href="http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_people.html" target="_blank">Chosen People</a>

mibby529 · 07-23-2002, 11:44 AM

Well, Yahweh was originally a tribal deity. Only Paul changed it to otherwise, and many now note that Paul was a Roman (and thus ignorant of Jewish culture,) and simply carried Jesus' reactions against the more unjust elements of Jewish culture (discrimination against the infertile and, more relevant to this discussion, intercultural couples) to the logical extreme. It's like how New Agers decided that the Holocaust was "racial karma."

Jayhawker Soule · 07-23-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
Well, Yahweh was originally a tribal deity. Only Paul changed it to otherwise, ...

Do you suppose that YHWH was viewed as a "tribal diety" throughout the 2nd Temple Period?

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
... and many now note that Paul was a Roman (and thus ignorant of Jewish culture,) and simply carried Jesus' reactions against the more unjust elements of Jewish culture (discrimination against the infertile and, more relevant to this discussion, intercultural couples) to the logical extreme.

Who would you consider the most authoritative among these "many"? Also, I'd be interested in seeing examples of Jesus fighting discrimination against infertility and intermarriage.

Quote:

Originally posted by mibby529:
It's like how New Agers decided that the Holocaust was "racial karma."

So, you don't think the idea of 'Covenant' had anything to do with it?

wildernesse · 07-23-2002, 12:03 PM

many now note that Paul was a Roman (and thus ignorant of Jewish culture,)

Can you point me to some sources of this? Thank you.

--tiba

Marduk · 07-23-2002, 02:20 PM

Paul was a Jew, Saul was his name before he got 'Jesufied' But he was a Roman Citizen, not from Rome. If you lived in a town that was occupied by Rome, you were a Roman Citizen. Paul waved his "look at me I'm a ROMAN CITIZEN Card" whenever he got in trouble with the local Jewish authorities. (Acts of the Apostles, during a silversmiths riot) he also pulled this 'I'm A Roman Citizen' stuff to get better treatment in the slammer.

Michael Ledo · 07-23-2002, 02:39 PM

I hate this chosen people crap. Blessed nations etc. It seems God is a stupid ass under achiever. He has NEVER been able to bless a nation or a people unless it has been at the expense at some other people or nation. Never Never Never. Why is that? Seems God's national blessings or the idea of a chosen people is and has always been an excuse for man's inhumanity to man. Can't God just once bless a nation or people without shitting all over someone else? (Pardon my French.)

FunkyRes · 07-23-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:
FastFalcon couldn't even come close to an answer when I asked him this. Perhaps some of you other theists can include this in your witness attempts.

If the God of the NT loves everyone and wants the whole world to know him, then why would the God of the OT be so exclusive. Why would he choose to play favorites? Such behavior seems contradictory to that of an omniscient, omnipresent being who only loves everyone on the planet. If he loves everyone on the planet, why would he have the Jewish people do such nasty things to the unchosen people?

The basic question is, what is the logic of this God, as portrayed by Christians, for having a "chosen people" and playing favorites.

Please show all work.

He wasn't.
He wanted Israel to be a Nation of Priests.

Interesting things to note-
A priest is seen as an intermediate between God and the People. A nation of priests means God's intention was for Israel to bring the revelation to the other nations.

Circumcision.
This *may* be a stretch- but if I'm not mistaken, Circumcision was a sign of a Priest in Egyptian culture.

Thus, circumsision may have had a purpose of declaring that they were a nation of priests ('course, I don't know how many people would go looking at the wangs of the Hebrew in search of a priest)

In Genesis 12 God says "Through you, all the peoples will be blessed" (I think verse 3)

God's intention was for Israel to be a light shining on a hill, so that through them, all nations could come to know God.

Israel was chosen to bear a message, not to be elite.

Unfortunately, they didn't seem to get the point, even today they don't (as demonstrated by their non excusable hostility to the Palestinians)

lcb · 07-23-2002, 03:29 PM

the christians at my college say that God knew he would have to send his son to redeem mankind and that his son would have to have a people to be born of and a people to begin with and so forth...

07-22-2002, 08:06 PM	#1
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	God's Chosen Peoples FastFalcon couldn't even come close to an answer when I asked him this. Perhaps some of you other theists can include this in your witness attempts. If the God of the NT loves everyone and wants the whole world to know him, then why would the God of the OT be so exclusive. Why would he choose to play favorites? Such behavior seems contradictory to that of an omniscient, omnipresent being who only loves everyone on the planet. If he loves everyone on the planet, why would he have the Jewish people do such nasty things to the unchosen people? The basic question is, what is the logic of this God, as portrayed by Christians, for having a "chosen people" and playing favorites. Please show all work.

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07-23-2002, 05:56 AM	#3
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	For what it's worth: <a href="http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_people.html" target="_blank">Chosen People</a>

07-23-2002, 11:44 AM	#4
mibby529 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cali Posts: 170	Well, Yahweh was originally a tribal deity. Only Paul changed it to otherwise, and many now note that Paul was a Roman (and thus ignorant of Jewish culture,) and simply carried Jesus' reactions against the more unjust elements of Jewish culture (discrimination against the infertile and, more relevant to this discussion, intercultural couples) to the logical extreme. It's like how New Agers decided that the Holocaust was "racial karma."

07-23-2002, 12:03 PM	#6
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	many now note that Paul was a Roman (and thus ignorant of Jewish culture,) Can you point me to some sources of this? Thank you. --tiba

07-23-2002, 02:20 PM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Paul was a Jew, Saul was his name before he got 'Jesufied' But he was a Roman Citizen, not from Rome. If you lived in a town that was occupied by Rome, you were a Roman Citizen. Paul waved his "look at me I'm a ROMAN CITIZEN Card" whenever he got in trouble with the local Jewish authorities. (Acts of the Apostles, during a silversmiths riot) he also pulled this 'I'm A Roman Citizen' stuff to get better treatment in the slammer.

07-23-2002, 02:39 PM	#8
Michael Ledo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SC Posts: 49	I hate this chosen people crap. Blessed nations etc. It seems God is a stupid ass under achiever. He has NEVER been able to bless a nation or a people unless it has been at the expense at some other people or nation. Never Never Never. Why is that? Seems God's national blessings or the idea of a chosen people is and has always been an excuse for man's inhumanity to man. Can't God just once bless a nation or people without shitting all over someone else? (Pardon my French.)

07-23-2002, 03:29 PM	#10
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	the christians at my college say that God knew he would have to send his son to redeem mankind and that his son would have to have a people to be born of and a people to begin with and so forth...

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