Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mike_decock · 03-25-2003, 12:31 PM

I think that atheists and theists both accept the Principle of Causality as a scientifically valid principle (except, perhaps, at a quantum level) as well as the concept of Free Will (except for the hard-core determinists).

I was wondering how theists and atheists alike resolve these apparently contradictory concepts. Causality holds that nothing occurs without a cause and the choices we make would not be excluded from this. On the other hand, Free Will implies that we can choose what we want, regardless of the cause.

-Mike...

Ojuice5001 · 03-25-2003, 01:05 PM

There's a difference between causality and determinism. Causality doesn't entail that the outcome of the event couldn't have been different. Determinism does, and it's what contradicts free will.

So if I'm channel surfing, going past Friends will cause me to watch the rest of the show, but if determinism is false, that event could have happened otherwise, though it could not have happened without a cause.

mike_decock · 03-25-2003, 01:08 PM

Doesn't causality imply that the effect is determined by the cause?

-Mike...

Ojuice5001 · 03-25-2003, 06:11 PM

Maybe so. But first, I think it must be less absurd to believe in an indeterminate, but caused, event than to believe in an uncaused one.

Second, even if causality does entail determinism, what about the free-willed soul? If it exists, isn't it part of the cause of your actions? Perhaps the natural world is indeterministic, but if you could fully consider supernatural entities, you could see that events are causally determined. That's what I think, and the appearance of indeterminism is the main reason.

kesparate · 03-26-2003, 02:38 AM

causality is actualy something that exists only in specific frames of referance. causality is violated by relativity, and damn near ceases to be at the quantum level.
on the macroscopic scale freewill most certainly exists, even in the frames of referance where causality remains intact. causality simply states that cause A yields result A, but that result B comes from cause B. cause A neither precludes nor necessitates result B. basicly each action is a seperate case with it's own result. the results may effect one another but they DO NOT dictate anything beyond themselves.
determinism is straight hog-wash. please see any competant work on chaos thoery and or quantum mechanics.

03-25-2003, 12:31 PM	#1
mike_decock Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,505	Does the Principle of Causality violate the concept of Free Will? I think that atheists and theists both accept the Principle of Causality as a scientifically valid principle (except, perhaps, at a quantum level) as well as the concept of Free Will (except for the hard-core determinists). I was wondering how theists and atheists alike resolve these apparently contradictory concepts. Causality holds that nothing occurs without a cause and the choices we make would not be excluded from this. On the other hand, Free Will implies that we can choose what we want, regardless of the cause. -Mike...

03-26-2003, 02:38 AM	#5
kesparate New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IL Posts: 3	causality's for wusses causality is actualy something that exists only in specific frames of referance. causality is violated by relativity, and damn near ceases to be at the quantum level. on the macroscopic scale freewill most certainly exists, even in the frames of referance where causality remains intact. causality simply states that cause A yields result A, but that result B comes from cause B. cause A neither precludes nor necessitates result B. basicly each action is a seperate case with it's own result. the results may effect one another but they DO NOT dictate anything beyond themselves. determinism is straight hog-wash. please see any competant work on chaos thoery and or quantum mechanics.

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03-25-2003, 01:05 PM	#2
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	There's a difference between causality and determinism. Causality doesn't entail that the outcome of the event couldn't have been different. Determinism does, and it's what contradicts free will. So if I'm channel surfing, going past Friends will cause me to watch the rest of the show, but if determinism is false, that event could have happened otherwise, though it could not have happened without a cause.

03-25-2003, 01:08 PM	#3
mike_decock Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,505	Doesn't causality imply that the effect is determined by the cause? -Mike...

03-25-2003, 06:11 PM	#4
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Maybe so. But first, I think it must be less absurd to believe in an indeterminate, but caused, event than to believe in an uncaused one. Second, even if causality does entail determinism, what about the free-willed soul? If it exists, isn't it part of the cause of your actions? Perhaps the natural world is indeterministic, but if you could fully consider supernatural entities, you could see that events are causally determined. That's what I think, and the appearance of indeterminism is the main reason.

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