brighid

Eric,

To whom? Do you really think that the good, or evil you do in this life leaves no mark? Why must a good deed be done for anything more then the goodness of it? Goodness for it’s own sake I say, and you shall reap what you sow. Why must you be rewarded by a God for doing good, or punished by the same God for doing wrong? All actions have consequences. The things that we do impact many people, and the actions of some (such as our world leaders) impact the entire world.

I do understand the kind of pain you describe when you think that at the end of your life you won’t be able to see your family or loved ones again. At times I anguish over this as well. The love I feel for my son, my husband and many others is so intense I am very uncomfortable thinking of scenarios that entail never being able to see, touch, hold, talk to, or love them ever again. No one, not a single, solitary soul knows IF there really is an afterlife, a heaven or a hell. They certainly do not KNOW if the Christian, Muslim, or other religious version of such a thing has an ounce of credibility. All we do KNOW is that this life is all we are assured of, this moment is time is it. We are not guaranteed another breath, a spot of happiness, or anything else because we have either been good, or evil. Therefore, as an atheist all I can go on is what I KNOW and because of this I do my best to live each day fully, to tread lightly on the Earth and my fellow human being, to set a good example, to leave a legacy of love, respect and kindness that will hopefully spread through out the ages (within my family and friends) and LIVE life because it is absolutely unique, precious and should not be squandered.

I personally feel that this philosophy helps me to see all people in the best light of reason. It helps me to see the inherent worth and dignity that our humanity demands. It helps me to love more completely, live more joyously, to not take myself too seriously and to (although sometimes failing) judge people as I wish to be judged. This philosophy reminds me to enjoy this moment, as it might be my last. It reminds me to love my family with all my ability not just on occasion, but every opportunity I get. It reminds me to live life without regret whenever possible and it instills the morality of doing good for nothing more then the sake of goodness. I might not ever have another opportunity to read a story to my son and watch him fall into blissful sleep. I might not ever have the opportunity to look deeply and loving into the eyes of my beloved husband, or make love to him with passion and abandon. I might not ever have another chance to watch to sunrise, or see the reflection of the moon on the ocean, or smell the crisp, night air as it fills with the aromas of wood burning in a hearth … and therefore I try to savor each moment as best I can.

I hope I live a very long life. I hope I get to see my beautiful child grow into the amazing man I know he can be. I want to hold the grandchildren I hope to have in my arms. But if I cannot because my life ends (tragically or otherwise) I want to have developed wonderful and loving memories for those I love, and have set the best examples I could so I will live on in their memories, in their deeds and perhaps have my smile reflected in one of those grandchildren.

I also hope there is an afterlife. I hope I can see those that I love again, but I simply cannot live this life hoping for naught, especially given the evidence is so terribly weak. If there is an afterlife and if there is a God(s) and I am not admitted into this afterlife for nothing more then a failure to believe then so be it. I will have lived this life to the best of my ability and I will have nothing to regret. I will have lived, loved, laughed and so much more.

It hurts to think I might not ever see my loved ones again, but that doesn’t mean one should cognitively distort what is real in order to obtain a modicum of comfort. One can received honest comfort in the truth, even if one will not be filled with the same feeling an opiate will. Do you really think a loving, all knowing, absolutely powerful God would want an insincere believer because it was easier to believe? If you do, then you should question whether this is the type of God you would want to pledge your eternal life and allegiance to!

Brighid

Starboy

To all,

There appears to be an unstated assumption that the existence of god would somehow give life meaning. I do not understand why that would be so. In the end it matters little what happened to you or how it happened or how long it took. It only matters if you find it important and engaging. Eric, your problem may have little to nothing to do with a belief in god or an after life or any of the other sentiments experessed on this thread, your problem may be that you haven't found anything that for you makes life worth living. Until you have found that the rest will not matter.

Starboy

Eric Starnes

:banghead:

I sat here thinking about this for 30 minutes and i could not come up with an answer that made any sense.

:banghead:

no

I dont believe that religion will actually give life meaning. I am hoping that i can make myself believe that it does so i dont have to worry about it.

Ya thats pretty much it.


It seems like some of you believe that i am concidering religion for the benifits religions claim.

I dont expect to actually get an afterlife, i just want hope for an afterlife.

I dont expect to actually have a personal relationship with god, i just want the illusion of it.

I dont expect to have gods help for the trials in my life, i am hoping the psycological effects of prayer will be enough.

Basically i know religion is crap; i am just hopeing that once i am indoctrinated, brainwashed, or whatever i will be able to forget about all that. Its not like reasonably intelligent atheists havent turned to religion before. I probably wont be able to believe it all and come out of my attempt to be religious more messed up and depressed then i am now.

Oh well, i guess i will read "Life Without God - A Guide to Fulfillment" before i do anything stupid.

Shadowy Man

Why don't you just pick something to do, preferably something difficult (like climb to the top of Mt. Everest, get a Ph.D. in some obscure field, or play Oboe in the Moscow Philharmonic) and work towards that. Give your life some meaning - who cares if anyone else thinks it has meaning or not - create that meaning for yourself.

That way you can give some ultimate purpose to your life, and that everything you do can be some small step toward attaining that goal.

Then, once you've attained that goal, if you still think life is worthless you can commit suicide.

davidH

This is the problem Eric - you can't be indoctrinated, brainwashed etc.

Yo, think about it this way. You have nothing in your life that's worth living for because nothing satisfies you - that is how a lot of people feel but they try to "brainwash" themselves into thinking that they are content and satisfied.

Now, why not search for God?

So many people will tell you that only he can truly satisify you completely - are you (depressed and unsatisified with everything else) not even going to see for yourself whether he does exist?
How hard can it be? It's not an opertunity to pass up.

It's like you've been searching for treasure all your life and found none. Depressed you come up to a huge door which someone tells you lies treasure beyond you wildest dreams, are you not even going to open it to take a look? Or are you going to turn away and carry on looking where you have found none before?

As you stand there, someone else comes up and opens the door and stands at the doorstep - all you and they can see if complete darkness. "Nope" the other fellow says, "Thought it was all a myth, just made up to decieve the gullable!" He then turns and walks off.
You wonder how he could say that...not having seen anything..but darkness.

You see a flamming torch on the wall by the door, you are drawn by a curiosity, you want to truly see if there is treasure that you have been searching for. You pick up the torch and walk through the door, and the light is suddenly reflected by thousands of diamonds and jewels. You have found that which you have been searching for- why? - Because you searched with "all your heart" to find the truth about what had been said, unlike the other fellow, who was quick to believe in what he thought rather than truly searching.

You say you think it's crap - but want to be indoctrinated by it.

Why not be like the fellow in the story - you have arrived at that door - are you going to turn away as one man did? Or are you going to truly search and find the truth for yourself?

The flamming torch is your communication with God - the more time you spend, the brighter it will burn - and the truth will be revealed.


In the state you are now - what have you got to lose? Why not get a Bible and read 2 Peter, before you read it, ask God to speak to you. Pray to him and tell him everything that you are going through.
It may feel strange, but do it. Find out for yourself - a lot of people here are afraid to do this - just incase it might be true.

Eric, if you want to find happiness you have to truly get to know God. Read the Bible and pray to him. Pray just as if you were talking to another person in the room.

lpetrich

Eric, so you wish to make yourself believe in some religion you consider false just so that you will be happy?

If you crave a religion for that purpose, the I suggest that you consider some flavor of Unitarianism or Buddhism or New-Age belief or neo-paganism. I'm trying to think of what sort of religion would be the least intellectually obnoxious.

Radorth

Funny M. Scott Peck passed on those. And Scweitzer. And Lewis. And G.K. Chesterton.

Yeah pick one which is intellectually acceptable to the skeptics here, and avoid those which will give you complete assurance of salvation by grace, give you a demonstrable power in your life, calls sin what it is while forgiving it all, cleanse you of all guilt, impute righteousness to you, remove any need for self righteousness, provide a detailed and clear point of reference you can read for yourself, manifestations of the Holy Spirit you can see and experience yourself, revivals which made Ben Franklin take notice, and a testimony none of your Catholic friends will be able to match.

You can find a nice, acceptable, intellectual, powerless religion and pretend it's helpful. Or you can ask God if he's real, tell him you think religion and philosophy are mostly BS, tell him you are looking for something real, you don't care what, and see what happens. I can personally recommend such an approach.

Rad

Fiach

Wilbur is a God. I invented him so I know his exists at least in my brain.

Wilbur is the ideal god. He is named Wilbur but he is in no way Human like JHWH, Joe Hovah, Allah, Jesus, or Thor. He has no substance, no essence, and did absolutely nothing. He doesn't claim credit for the Big Bang or for cosmic evolution, chemical evolution, or biological evolution. He does absolutely nothing.

He doesn't hate. He doesn't require worship. He is not jealous. He is not capricious. He is not unjust. He is not vindictive. He is not cruel. He does not have temper tantrums or rage attacks. He doesn't rape young human girls to make little god-men. He would never invent a Hell or a Heaven. He has no required dogma. He has only one commandment: Thou shalt have no commandments.

He does not have followers (me) try to discredit legitimate science with barmy scriptural bollocks and superstition.

He accepts gravity, the spherical Earth, the Heliocentric Solar system, the 13 billion year old universe, the 4.5 billion year old Earth, biological evolution by about 7 mechanisms mediated through changes in nucleotide sequences, the neural pathways causing mystical experiences, superstition, and religion. He didn't cause religion. It just happened (Shite happens Hypothesis.) Wilbur offers a rational, good natured, and humourous alternative to the stagnant Anthropomorphic religions that are long past their time of natural demise.

I discovered the only religion that I could tolerate was one that I invented myself. I am willing to take suggestions on anything that would enhance the niceness of Wilbur and the kind tolerance of this religion.

Fiach

Cthulhu

Oh, I like this game. Shall I list the truly brilliant men who decided to give Christianity a pass?

No, not intellectually "acceptable", but relatively harmless and tolerant. I don't know many people who call themselves skeptics who accept New Age and Neo-pagan beliefs, but at least the practitioners of these faiths aren't trying to force their way into every aspect of our lives.

Yes, assurance of salvation from a religion that created the myth that we need salvation in the first place.

What power would that be? Can you fly? Does Xianity give you X-ray vision? Telekinesis?

Too bad it deprives you of the power of reason.

Yes, it forgives you of the sin which is only a sin because it says it is. Brilliant.

If by cleanse you mean create, then I agree.

Only of the self variety.

Ha ha ha, good one!

Oh wait, you're being serious?

Yes, so detailed and clear that there has only been a few hundred different interpretations of it.

More like manifestations of your delusions.

And yet not enough to want to convert to Xianity. Interesting.

But does it offer a money-back guarantee?

Or you can find a nasty, absurd religion like Christianity and pretend it's helpful.

Probably a visit to the local mental ward if you insist on holding conversations with invisible people.

There's a ringing endorsement.

Treacle Worshipper

I'm sorry, Eric. I was only trying to get a better understanding of your ideas.

I understand what you are saying, but I honestly don't think that I personally could do it. I didn't want to leave Xianity (emotion), I just thought about it (the theology) too much (intellect). I think you will only be able to accept a religion if you can find arguments that satisfy your intellect, or if you can fool yourself into believing that they do. And, like Ipetrich, I hope you will consider that there are other, kinder religions (or perhaps "less exclusive") than Xianity, which give you the same sort of hopes.
Anyway, I hope that you find something that works for you and gives you what you want.
Best Wishes,
TW