Dr Rick

We're not suppressing anything; we know that it's not impossible for gods to exist just as we know that it's not impossible for the IPU to exist. We also know that the available evidence does not justify belief in the existence of either.

Rick

Hawkingfan

After reading this and many of your other posts on this board, I notice this recurring point--that concluding there is a god, and concluding there is not a god are the same in terms of "faith" and logic. Politely speaking, I was just wondering if you are familiar with the concept of parsimony (i.e.Occam's razor)?

xian

yes, i am well versed in the principle.

i do not mean to say "conclude there is not a God", but I mean to say "conclude that nature is all there is"....where atheism is not a conclusion, naturalism is a conclusion. "The universe does not need a creator" is a positive conclusion; one that I believe the majority of atheists make

betzerdg

First, It's hard for me to invision what you mean by a "devout" christian for 15 years? So from the time you were born until 15 years of age you considered yourself "devout". hmmmm.....

In the 15 years that you were a devout christian...were you a "true christian"

after all.... you've never met a "true" christian.

..this is really hard for me to understand.

Did you have a mom and dad that loved you. How about a grandma? There you find G-d. A warm house and food to eat? there is G-d's blessing.

G-d began speaking to you, (me, all of mankind) over 4,000 years ago. He recorded WHO he IS, what things we can do to have a good life, Who we are...and WHO we will be. He made laws that protected and defined our life. He even came to earth himself to show us how to live and the things that were eternal.
Giving Himself so that we might be reconciled to HIM.

This isn't enough! He had to "speak" to you , too. Like you, at 15, needed to hear the voice of G-d.

This is "devout". Rabbi's speak of our duty to study torah everyday. To pray three times a day. To do Tikkun Olam...to heal the world by giving to the poor and helping the elderly and feeding the hungry. Devout means putting G-d above yourself...making HIM the love your your life...acknowledged in everything you do. And a 15year old did this! I think not.

So maybe this could be the case. You were told some mumbo-jumbo hype from some evangelical christian that being a christian is all about YOU and how YOU SHOULD FEEL. The reality is, it's about giving the creator of the universe HIS rightful place in our existence. To look with"awe" upon HIM, with respect and devotion.

And not finding any True believers....well....don't get out much...or think that being human disqualifies one from being called "christian" Ever read about the lives of the patriarchs of the faith. Very human. Very fallible. Messed up alot. G-d still loved them. They still loved G-d.

And the rabbi's say...we should love G-d even IF we were to get no reward...even IF we have no place in the world to come...WE lOVE hims because of who HE IS.

This is faith...believing that G-d IS...and that HE Does reward those who diligently seek HIM.

I'm sorry that you didn't experience G-d in a way that you thought you should. I must say that I do experience the "presence" of G-d in my life( not arrogantly am I saying this ) Sometimes it takes time to build a relationship...even with G-d....it's a processes...

HOw do I hear the voice of G-d. ONce audible. Mostly thru reading scripture and talking with HIM in prayer....a kind of "knowing" or "feeling'..that's hard to explain. And I wish this Could happen to everyone in this Forum....but I think faith comes first...(I've been a believer for 30 years.) Knowing G-d is experiential and existential....unprovable...but once it has happened...undeniable. I wish you that kind of undeniable experience that is the result of faith....not the reason for faith.

As Doestoevsky said " in a realist, miracles are the results of faith, not faith the results of a miracle.

Shalom

Betzer

Javaman

At least after bashing the poster you addressed the topic. By the way, I assume you mean that you read Judeo-Christian scripture. Unfortunately, I don't have much to add to this topic but I have a question for you, Betzer. My assumtion is that you're not a native speaker of english (if I'm wrong, I apologize) so I wonder why you take a (mostly) english word like "God" and spell it "G-d". Is it reverence? Fear? It's not like that word appears anywhere in scripture. I've seen this spelling in the past and I've always been curious.

diana

Javaman,

I'm assuming he's Jewish. You can't destroy anything with God's name on it, so the electronic problem of lost bits was solved by omitting the vowel. (If this assumption is wrong, ok. I have no friggin clue.)

xian,

I think, as humans, we all find contentment, if we find contentment at all, in the things that give us hope. For you, at least part of this is your faith that God is in control and that you have something to look forward to after death. Perhaps more, but these are two "hopes" that define your faith, yes?

I, however, find hope in different things. For example, I lived in Wilmington, NC, from 1996-2000 (the four-year long hurricane season). During that time, I saw some awful things. Aside from the devastation, I saw people take as much of the free relief water from the city that they could, go down the street and sell it to those in need. I saw vandals and looters. I saw wrecked lives in the wake of the storms.

But I also saw people helping one another rebuild, feeding and housing one another--sometimes people they didn't even know prior to the storms--and finding ways to help out in every way they could.

Now, while we're at war, I also see the bad side of humanity. Murder, devastation, force and brutality. But war also brings out the gentleness and love of which most people are capable, but don't often show.

It's been my experience that every awful thing that happens is complemented by an equal and opposite beautiful thing. I can focus on the beauty that these things bring out, or not. Same as you.

I don't think I reduce the meaning of contentment. Perhaps we just find it in different spots.

d

Magus55

Ommitting the vowel in God is just a sign of respect. It is used to denote the holiness and sovereignty of God.

Farren

Originally posted by betzerdg
Did you have a mom and dad that loved you. How about a grandma? There you find G-d. A warm house and food to eat? there is G-d's blessing.


Please explain why I should accept this statement instead of the more obvious explanation: This is human parental biological instinct?


G-d began speaking to you, (me, all of mankind) over 4,000 years ago. He recorded WHO he IS, what things we can do to have a good life, Who we are...and WHO we will be. He made laws that protected and defined our life. He even came to earth himself to show us how to live and the things that were eternal.
Giving Himself so that we might be reconciled to HIM.
This isn't enough! He had to "speak" to you , too. Like you, at 15, needed to hear the voice of G-d.


Without him speaking to me, what evidence do I have of this? The testimony to this fact is all human. Humans lie. Some humans (Budda) say there is/are no God/s. Who should I believe, and why?


This is "devout". Rabbi's speak of our duty to study torah everyday. To pray three times a day. To do Tikkun Olam...to heal the world by giving to the poor and helping the elderly and feeding the hungry. Devout means putting G-d above yourself...making HIM the love your your life...acknowledged in everything you do. And a 15year old did this! I think not.

So maybe this could be the case. You were told some mumbo-jumbo hype from some evangelical christian that being a christian is all about YOU and how YOU SHOULD FEEL. The reality is, it's about giving the creator of the universe HIS rightful place in our existence. To look with"awe" upon HIM, with respect and devotion.


Once again, why? Simply stating that you do and I should doesn't provide any reason whatsoever. Personally I find xian's personal testimony of a relationship with God at least marginally more convincing than your "I do and you should because I say so".

Without a convincing argument, will you accept that we will be judged by the dead chickens of the world when we die, just because I say so?


And not finding any True believers....well....don't get out much...or think that being human disqualifies one from being called "christian" Ever read about the lives of the patriarchs of the faith. Very human. Very fallible. Messed up alot. G-d still loved them. They still loved G-d.


Look at Budda. No divine being spoke to him. Very human, very fallible. Had massively greater impact on human quality of life than these patriarchs. Why should I believe you.


And the rabbi's say...we should love G-d even IF we were to get no reward...even IF we have no place in the world to come...WE lOVE hims because of who HE IS.


I love the supreme council dead chickens because of who they are. I've never seen, heard or spoken to them, but some guy insisted they exist and thats good enough for me. Come on, address the question. Put yourself in my shoes. If I just continuously repeat something at you are you just gonna believe it cos I keep saying it?


This is faith...believing that G-d IS...and that HE Does reward those who diligently seek HIM.

I'm sorry that you didn't experience G-d in a way that you thought you should. I must say that I do experience the "presence" of G-d in my life( not arrogantly am I saying this ) Sometimes it takes time to build a relationship...even with G-d....it's a processes...


So how come I wasn't rewarded when I did?

Farren

betzerdg,

Jewish or not, take a leaf out of the Xian apologist book. This is a debating and discussing forum. Debate. Discuss. You not gonna convince anyone, ever, by saying

He exists
He exists
He exists
He exists
He exists
He exists
He exists

... because I know. The only time this works is through peer pressure in closed communities. You're just wasting time doing that on a web forum, especially an athiest one.

Hawkingfan

There is nothing wrong with arriving at such a positive conclusion when parsimony was used in order to make it.