Farren

This requires me to recount my personal journey to qualify the questions that follow:

I was a devout Christian for about the first 15 years of my life, a doubter for about 2 more and an "atheist" since (theres a subtle qualifier i wont get into, but a humanoid creator God causal agent certainly doesn't feature in my beliefs, so more or less the popular definition of an athiest).

The thing that turned me so early was this. In about the 12 odd years after my infancy I never heard God speak to me. Not once. No voice, no wierd mystical awe-inspired feeling, no profound compulsion to act in a certain way.

Thats not to say I didn't have a "Christian" conscience. I felt guilty about things Christians feel guilty about. I felt pious and well-meaning about things Christians feel well meaning about. I was scared of offending God. But on self-examination of the processes behind these feelings and thoughts (I was an introverted child), I could never honestly say wether some "force" compelled me or more obvious factors such as habit and a childs natural assumption that the majority around you must be right.

I kind of conceded the mystical force behind acts of conscience because the belief system I'd been brought up in said I should, not because I couldn't find alternative within myself.

In fact, one of the things that made me feel guilty was that I always felt like I was talking to myself when I prayed and that worried me because I was sure I should be "sensing a presence" or something.

Even in my teens when I began to question my beliefs, my "fear" of angering God was an abstract fear, a logically-derived fear, if you like. Like "If there is a God and my doubts anger him then I'm in big shit but if there isn't I'm not so there's a fifty fifty chance and thats quite a big chance to gamble eternity on". Not "This is like giving up my younger brother!"

When I eventually left the fold there was no sense of loss, of a guiding force leaving me stranded in the dark or any of that stuff. In fact, there was a profound sense of freedom, of a bright light being switched on.

I flirted with religion again (briefly) two or three times after that. I was fairly resolute in my atheism but not hostile the way many deconverted athiests are. Many of my intelligent friends were theists and the more I talked about God with them, the more athiest they became, but very little in the other direction.

For a looong time I had this thing about door to door Christians and Fundys. Come in, let me make you some tea, and I'll listen carefully to your message if you reciprocate. The smart ones I often got along with. The real Fundy lay my hands on you types just came across as ignorant and foolish, no matter how charitable my temprament. No "Light of God" or "Spirit" in them whatsoever, just an embarrasing kind of ignorant darkness.

Furthermore while not an "expert" in anything except programming and analysis, my interests spanned almost every science (I've read about 5 or six books a month since I could read). Philosophy, Logics, Mathematics, Psychology, Biology, Chemistry (ok here I'm weak), Classical Physics, Quantum Physics and the "soft" sciences (sociology, history, economics etc). I was pretty much obsessed with each of these individually at some stage. Then in my late twenties I met an extraordinary series of people who exposed me to Daoism, Buddhism, Fine Art and realms of knowledge outside of the word (such as the knowledge of touch from massage).

Rather than producing confusion this has given me a subtle, eclectic and very full and satisfying world view (although I'm making no claim that it is a "universally correct" one, in fact the view itself motivates against such a claim being possible of any view).

I'm now 34 and when I encounter God-loving people who sincerely want to share the good news with me there is absolutely no sense of attraction for me. To misappropriate a Zen Koan, it feels as if they want to pour the exquisitely scented tea from my full cup and half fill it with tap water (which is admittedly still refreshing, but...). I get a sense from many of the less confrontational athiests who argue here that they are having the same emotional experience.

So here are the questions (at last! )

1) How does God "speak" to you. Is it a subtle compulsion, flashes of "good" or "bad" intuitions, a distinct voice?

2) If 15 years of believing in and praying to God never gave me the slightest hint of his presence, and being open to the sincere attempts of all comers to introduce me to his presence had not the slightest effect, wherein lies the problem.

2.1) Have I, in my 34 years of existence, never met a true christian(tm) - sorry, couldn't resist.

2.2.) Does God let people drift through life without any support or assistance, even if they pray to him, honor him and follow his path for a random period of time of up to, say 15 years, to test if they are worthy of his presence? This would seem to motivate against the philosophy I've heard most often espoused. "Let him enter your heart, and you will live in his grace.."

2.3) I've known a lot of pain, self inflicted and otherwise, like most human beings, but I've known a utter serenity and contentment, pure joy and uncondinditional love. Do you equate these emotions with the grace of God? If so, how can a Godless infidel experience them in equal measure?

2.4) Finally, I can honestly say that while I have all the human failings my actions towards others are generally guided by the principles of compassion and respect for all living things. I should qualify that I may say things to be "fiendish" or argumentative that you may take offence to, but I won't try to actually assasinate your character if I meet you. Also I may be condemnatory towards those who I feel are excessively hurtful or inconsiderate to others. But these positions in turn are guided by the principals I stated. Do you believe this attitude is possible without the grace of God?

xian

an honest post...deserves an honest answer.


i admit when i clicked on the subject, I expected so see a mock-laden post about god speaking to people, but instead it was an honest post. so i will answer from my experiences.

I have never (that I know of) heard God speak to me in any way that one would say "speaking". I have felt God's presence in my life- they are emotions mainly- an awareness.

if you have a wife or a child in your life, you know the difference between being alone and being aware of that person being there. For example, you are in your living room watching TV, your wife is in the bedroom taking a nap.

Even though she is not in your field of view, or observable through any of your senses, you still have a specific awareness that she is there that is disctincly different from your state of being if you were in the house alone. When you come home at night to an empty home, with no one there to greet you, there is no awareness of someone, but only a longing for someone. This is in stark contrast to the feeling of being aware of someone that you long for.

It is very hard to explain, but that is the best I can do.

hmmm.... well i have felt this presence, though I do admit there are times when I seek His presence and feel empty still.

i don't know what you mean. what is a "true christian" other than one who attempts to follow Christ?

yes, I think God does let people drift through life. I do not believe anyone "drifts" through life but as a consequence of their choices. Sometimes bad situations happen to us beyond our choices, but one still need not "drift".

well I'm right with you there. I've had some major losses happen to me recently. Big losses beyond my ability to withstand . There have been times when I have felt like tommorow was stolen from me. ANd even during these times, I still felt many flashes of serenity, contentment, joy. Granted they were in the context of a horrible circumstance that tested the very limits of my faith, but i still had these moments. I think any person, infidels included, can experience serenity, unconditional love. But contentment? I do not know, simply because I am not an infidel. I would wager to say that many infidels would say they are quite content. I will not call them liars, but I will just say that I do not understand how one could be content in a world wrought with pain, suffering, bloodshed, where one's ultimate end is death and cessation of existence.

I could not find contentment in that, and any contentment I though I might had would be delusional. However, that is just me, I will not speak for an atheist.

Wyz_sub10

This is probably a topic for a new thread, and I do not want to derail the OP. But I will say that quite often being content is accpeting reality, regardless of how you feel about that reality.

Like many people, I have had friends and family die slowly of cancer. Were they content with the reality of the situation? Of course not. But they accepted that this was, indeed, happening to them.

The idea concerning the appeal of the eventuality of "cessation" is another topic.

keyser_soze

He always calls collect! I've tried blocking his number, but he snaps his fingers and BAM, override. What a peckerhead. Oh wait, it was to the christians....I was once, but I'm reformed now...Does that count?

xian

perhaps the OP meant "content" in that fashion, however that is not my definition of being content.

Content to me is not = to accepting reality. Content as I define it would be "at peace with and fulfilled".

and maybe that is how atheists deal with reality....by reducing the meaning of contentment? I am not sure, again not being an atheist, I dare not speak for anyone. But in my opinion (only my opinion here! ) defining contentment as simply accepting reality is reducing the word from what I feel the OP intended. He seemed to be listing supreme ideals (unconditional love, serenity, joy), and it seems like contentment was also to be defined in this ideal sense.

i could be wrong. (what? A xian wrong? NOOOOOOOOO) he he

Wyz_sub10

I think "at peace with" and "fulfilled" are very different things. I truly believe that people can be at peace with themselves in accepting a bad situation. I realize that you are referring more to just "accepting it". But that speaks to my point - things in life cannot always be changed. A certain contentedness comes from accepting this (however hard it may be). Even if I could not accept something, like death, I would find little solace in clinging to an idea I did not truly believe in.

No, my life is immensly fulfilling - my career allows me to improve the quality of life for many people, I have the best wife on planet earth who fulfills me, and wonderful family and friends.

I can only speak for myself, first-hand, but I doubt any atheist would agree that they cannot understand "contentment" as you define it. I can understand it, and on many levels, relate to it.

I agree, as per my reply above. What I am saying is simply that there is a degree of contentedness to be found in accepting reality. (That is not the way I seek contentment, however). But I could not find fulfilment in convincing myself that something exisited beyond death, when I do not believe that to be true.

Atheists value all these things, too - love, serenity, joy, happiness, coffee and donuts. All very good, all fulfilling, all things that may lead to contentedness (coffee and donuts, more personally so).

Farren

Originally posted by xian
an honest post...deserves an honest answer.

...
i admit when i clicked on the subject, I expected so see a mock-laden post about god speaking to people, but instead it was an honest post. so i will answer from my experiences.


Thx, and thanks too for the thoughtfullness of your reply


...
hmmm.... well i have felt this presence, though I do admit there are times when I seek His presence and feel empty still.


What I'm trying to get at I suppose is how do you account for experiences like mine from the framework that atheists are in a kind of denial? Or is that a misrepresentation of your views?

i don't know what you mean. what is a "true christian" other than one who attempts to follow Christ?

This was a reference to the views I've seen espoused before to the effect that "Oh you're mistaken about that Christian standpoint because your reference (say a Catholic or a JW) is not a True Christian(tm)", or, in this case "You haven't been exposed to a True Christian(tm), so you haven't seen the light" - coming from believers who take the narrow view and are as likely to bash other Christians as athiests.


yes, I think God does let people drift through life. I do not believe anyone "drifts" through life but as a consequence of their choices. Sometimes bad situations happen to us beyond our choices, but one still need not "drift".


I think I was more focussed on the question of why long-term seeking of God doesn't seem to have resulted in experiencing him, in my case.


well I'm right with you there. I've had some major losses happen to me recently. Big losses beyond my ability to withstand . There have been times when I have felt like tommorow was stolen from me. ANd even during these times, I still felt many flashes of serenity, contentment, joy. Granted they were in the context of a horrible circumstance that tested the very limits of my faith, but i still had these moments. I think any person, infidels included, can experience serenity, unconditional love. But contentment? I do not know, simply because I am not an infidel. I would wager to say that many infidels would say they are quite content. I will not call them liars, but I will just say that I do not understand how one could be content in a world wrought with pain, suffering, bloodshed, where one's ultimate end is death and cessation of existence.

I could not find contentment in that, and any contentment I though I might had would be delusional. However, that is just me, I will not speak for an atheist.

Here's another instinct I have. Since there is an enormous amount of common ground between the views of some athiests and some Christian, and equal dissimilarity between many within their respective belief framework, doesn't much of the conflict derive from a prescriptive view of personal beliefs rather than a descriptive view?

I'm aware that your faith has , as a tenet, prosthetylisation, but... Well the easiest way to describe what I'm getting at is to desribe the Buddists and Daoists I've met. All of them have had the attitude of "This is what I believe, and it brings me inner peace, comfort, whatever. How are you today?".

The principle of "conversion" to these belief systems (I hesitate to call them religions because it is possible to be an atheist and a daoist, say) relies entirely on people seeking out and coming to the belief based on their respect for and admiration of those who practice it, rather than any aggressive prosthetylisation. This kind of "passive evangelism" avoids pitfalls like the crusades and running battles between church-state seperatists.

By way of a comparison, it is almost impossible to deeply offend a daoist because you have said something "blasphemous", "obscene" or "sacreligous" in his/her world view.

I think such a brand of Christianity (and Judaism and Islam) is possible. When I was young, we had an old priest who was a refugee from an Eastern Bloc country and had experienced great oppression in his life. He had a great sense of humour and used to put enormous numbers of jokes in the church newsletter. What got many churchgoers upset at first is that often these would be blasphemous. So one day he got up, and instead of the expected apology, provided a sincere explanation:

For him, Christianity implied a personal relationship with God. This in turn meant that he should treat God as a friend. Just as gently mocking a friend in no way implies less love for the friend, he saw no issues with mockery of his friend God. In fact, he believed it was essential to engage in the full range of human dialog with God because simple awe and excessive "respect" created fear and hatred for unbelievers.

What do you think? I'm not trying to tell Christians how to be Christian but IMHO lots of Christians actually have very different ideas about what being Christian means and where I can see an interpretation that increases the love and respect between Christians and non-Christians without violating the core beliefs, I can''t see why ppl choose the more negative interpretation.

Farren

One more thing extending on what I said above. You may from time to time see posts where I mock God. This is obviously in a different context because I don't believe in him.

Bear in mind that this is mockery of the BELIEF in God, since you can't mock what you don't believe in. Also, it does NOT equate to hatred for Christians and other faiths. You may ridicule a good friend mercilessly about the fact that he loves old Abba tracks. It doesn't mean you necessarily hate him or Abba.

Ganymede

And therein, IMO, lies the root of most theists beliefs.

xian

hmmm...well to be all honest with you, here is what I believe about atheists...

Atheism at its simple definition = lack of belief in god(s).

Naturalism = nature is all there is

Atheism itself is not a conclusion, but naturalism is a conclusion.

Babies, for example, are atheists, but not naturalists.
I believe that nearly all mature atheists are naturalists and have made deliberate mental conclusions to naturalism (more than just lacking a belief, but making an actual conclusion that the universe does not need a creator).

When an atheist tells me he lacks belief in God, I do believe him.

However, I believe that God exists, and I believe that all of these naturalists have a component somewhere in the recesses of their mind that agrees in the possibility of God, to such an extent that IF God exists, I do not believe that there will be any surprises.

To restate it more simply:

lets assume that God exists for the sake of argument. When a naturalist dies, and realizes he was wrong, he will not be surprised.

That is my view of atheism. Yes, they are sincere, but also they have a human component they supress that says "you know? that God you have been mocking just might be there!"

Like any theist who has doubts from time to time about God that they push aside, so, too, I believe atheists have doubts about atheism that they push aside.

I cannot prove this, of course, but i believe it.
oh, I can assure you this is absolutely not the case. I am a Christian fully and as a result of, my conclusions about the universe and my own existence. In all honesty, I have toyed with the idea of atheism and just cannot get there without immense dishonesty. I had an epiphany last week. This is such a rare event for yours truly . Its been ten years since I had such a powerful epiphany. I had just finished going through evidence for the famous archaeopteryx fossils and several claims of observed speciation. As I sat on my couch pondering this, and thinking about the universe and QM theory, I was contemplating the chaos and randomness of the universe, and then thinking about the the process of mutation, the upwards propensity towards complexity that evolution has demonstrated, and the lack of any scientific principle therein, and I was just utterly overwhelmed by a powerful certainty that humans did not evolve. It was like a revelation. Like a wave of serenity had washed over and through my consciousness. It was a genuine epiphany! I was so happy because I had totally forgotten what an epiphany was like. Yes, I had rejected evolution for the last 10 years, but never was it so overwhelmingly final as it was that day. I honestly looked at all the evidence...every single claim of speciation, definition of "natural selection", the fossils (and lack thereof), the talkorigins articles....and then the wave came over me.

Now, granted, a "burning in the bosom" is NOT a good enough test for truth. I realize this. But regardless, I was happy for this epiphany, it made my faith more solid.

I believe in God for 2 reasons:

1. I *want* God to exist. This may be the prescriptive component you were talking about. And most certainly i will not deny it, but even more so:

2. The wonder of the universe, and the mystery of my existence lead my mind and heart directly to God.

This is a fully descriptive element, and it is very powerful.

I just cannot turn the other way and be honest with myself. I have read all the atheist arguments. I have engrossed myself in Jeff Lowder, Quentin SMith, Heinz Pagels, Carl Sagan, (some nietzsche, but he was just too brutal for me), Dan Barker, Farrell Till (a very angry man), Peter Atkins, Mark Vuletic, Guths theories of inflation, and many others. I have tried to see the universe from the atheists perspective. And although I have some empathy for them, and can somewhat understand how they reached their conclusions (i do not call them irrational)....I just cannot intellectually go there with them. It would betray not only my mind, but my heart as well.