Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 03-13-2003, 09:37 AM

While some recognize the empty promises of worldly pursuits as so many lies and realize that:

He who hates false living
that evil guest
which is to be nothing and have nothing
He will find all the all gifts that heaven holds
he who hates false living

Rad

ImGod · 03-13-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L
I think Critical Thinking is grossly underrated by most of society. In fact, I think it is largely discouraged by those in positions of authority, because implicit in critical thinking is questioning authority.

How many people spend their lives in paranoid frenzies fearing everything from alien invaders to New World Order conspiracies because they don't critically evaluate things they are told? How many people spend tons of money on worthless dietary supplements (sometimes hazardous supplements) because they don't critically evaluate the claims made by advertizers? Why does advertizing work so well to sway people to bogus things - from products to political candidates? Because nobody critically evaluates the claims made in these adds.

And don't mistake critical thinking for intelligence. You don't have to be a genius to ask questions like: "What evidence is there to support this claim?" People can be taught to think critically just as they can be taught to think uncritically and accept things on faith from figures of authority.

I'm ranting a bit now, and probably exaggerating, but I feel strongly that critical thinking is sorely lacking in human culture all over the world. Religion or no religion, a world with more critical thinking would be a better place. And a person who thinks critically is much less likely to be taken advantage of. How important is that? Ask anyone who's been swindled out of their life savings by a scam.

Jamie

Be it extra life insurance, get rich quick scemes, or tithing, someone wants your money. I hear people complain about the government tax rates and then pat themselves on the back for giving 10 percent to their church.

Maybe the government should be allowed to start a church so they can generate extra income like they do with lotteries and casinos.

philechat · 03-13-2003, 10:25 AM

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I guess Locke, Hooker, Lewis, Chesterton, Tolkien, etc weren't Christians. Compared to them I'd say most skeptics here are locked in to some pretty rigid thinking.

The reason there are some Christian creators is that they already are creators, and the society is largely Christian. Among great artists, scientists, and philosophers there exist a lower proportion of Christians and a higher proportion of skeptics and Pagans compared to the general public.

Not only do the irreligious occupy most of the creative professions, a good number of atheist/agnostics created religious art that are by no means inferior to those created by Christians. A casual listen to (agnostic) Verdi's (Christian) requiem should hold some water here.

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See the "Philosophy" forum for evidence of the skeptic's fulfilled lives.

Don't understand you here. Atheism is NOT a system of philosophy, only a statement on god-belief. Among atheists you would find Marxists, capitalists, Buddhists, existentialists, neo-Platonists, hedonists, nihilists, humanists, and (almost) all philosophies possible.

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Or more worth it, depending on how you look at it.

It's more worth it to live for oneself than to live for someone else, human or divine. It would suck to be someone else's slave, no matter how "great" this master is.

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Yes, better to remain obsessed with your sexual needs, presume you were just born that way, and remain guilt free.

What the hell. If you want to stuff your strawman I would kindly put some flames on it. I like the aroma of burnt straw.

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The only truly "novel" ideas I've seen here are all the new Jesus-myth theories, such as Paul posing as Luke, a female, who wrote Acts about 140 AD. But I suppose if you want to take a hundred gratuitous and cynical assertions for granted, you can be one of those "free-thinkers" and have all sorts of other "novel" ideas.

Go read some philosophy, science, and literature, and see what skeptics contributed to those fields. Jesus-Myth was certainly NOT the only thing the skeptics invented. Ever heard of Nietzsche? Darwin? Sigmund Freud? James Joyce? Albert Einstein? You get the whole picture here.

the_cave · 03-13-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronin
Hey, you've hit right on it Jayjay ~ as 'pushing their agenda' is inherent in the dogma of christianity.

And atheists aren't "pushing their agenda"? I think that arguing for what you believe will make for a better world is just a part of human action.

the_cave · 03-13-2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Hi Jamie,

I don't think #2 is silly AT ALL!!! Seriously... think about how busy and hectic our lives can get - people work 40+ hours a week, then on the 2 days off a week have to juggle household responsibilities, family and social obligations, not to mention trying to get some "fun" time in - but they feel obligated to spend several hours on a Sunday morning, as you said

Should I also regret the hours I've spent reading works of ethics? Or works of literature?

What about all that wasted time singing songs I enjoy, or remembering favorite poems?

Perhaps my time would have been better spent watching reruns of "Just Shoot Me".

(Sorry if I have offended any fans of "Just Shoot Me")

All I'm saying is, even Christians don't encourage going to church solely out of a sense of obligation. There are lots of ways to waste your time--the real question is, what do you enjoy doing? If it's going to church, what's wrong with that?

the_cave · 03-13-2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Amos sez, Somewhat related to what I wrote above, this also seems to be a potential pitfall of religiosity in that the cosmic "get out of jail free" card may be especially appealing to those who don't truly desire to refrain from "sinful" behavior.

Sin = go to confession. Clean as a whistle!!!
Sin = go to confession. Woo-hoo, blank slate!
Rinse and Repeat.

This hardly needs to be responded to, but for the record, insincere confession--without at least the intention to cease from sin--is itself a sin. Sure, you could lie, but then that's another sin. Sorry.

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Originally posted by AmosOf course you are correct that real Christians are not fakers but what, may I ask, are real Christians doing in churches? Churches are for sinners and since sinners are not Christians Christians should not be going to churches.

Sinners aren't Christians? Clearly your impressions of Christian doctrine are false. I'm not sure who you're getting them from, but if they're Christians, they're mistaken (or else they're a variety of perfectionist Methodists who mostly don't exist anymore).

the_cave · 03-13-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Just had a thought...

Most people would say that a full-grown adult who still believes in their childhood "imaginary friend" is less-than-mentally-healthy. Even if they don't go around smiting people on the imaginary friend's say-so, most people would probably still consider it less than well-adjusted.

I respectfully submit there there is really no difference.

God was never an "imaginary friend" for me. I don't know any Christians for whom god was. (In fact, I never had any imaginary friends.) God wasn't some sort of invisible person floating nearby for me, and isn't now, so I don't see how there really is no difference.

markstake · 03-13-2003, 04:41 PM

the cave writes:

Quote:

And atheists aren't "pushing their agenda"? I think that arguing for what you believe will make for a better world is just a part of human action.

Pushing an agenda isn't part of atheism. In fact, there isn't much that really IS part of atheism other than not believing in God. Atheists may or may not pursue an agenda, but it doesn't have much to do with being an atheist.

Christians, and many other beliefs, on the other hand, incorporate converting others into their religion. "Saving" them.

Stephen T-B writes:

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My grandfather, towards the end of his life, began to wonder if he had, in fact, been good enough to get to heaven. His fears assailed him and they degraded the quality of his final years. I was told, later, that this is not uncommon among sincere believers.

I would agree this could be a true negative for the believer, since it impacts quality of life. He should see my point #2 from my earlier post (sin isn't your fault, and you can be easily redeemed) to avoid the issue, but as I said then, this frequently isn't incorporated into the mindset of Christians.

Godless Dave writes:

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I look at it the same way I look at drug use.

I'm not sure how far I think this analogy holds. Even drug users may not be hurting anyone. I can't say that Christianity in all its forms is harmless, but also just being Christian isn't sufficient to warrant the analogy to the scenarios you gave.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-13-2003, 04:54 PM

(j/k, I know you're a guy).

Quote:

Should I also regret the hours I've spent reading works of ethics? Or works of literature?

Reading works of ethics presumably involves using (and honing) critical thinking skills. Literature can be purely entertaining but is also an art form that can inspire reflection and insight into the human condition and the richness of life.

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What about all that wasted time singing songs I enjoy, or remembering favorite poems?

Nothing wrong with pure enjoyment!

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Perhaps my time would have been better spent watching reruns of "Just Shoot Me".

Hey, I like that show!

Plus, laughter releasese endorphins which is good for you.

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There are lots of ways to waste your time--the real question is, what do you enjoy doing? If it's going to church, what's wrong with that?

(emphasis mine) - See reasons #2 and #3, along with the many other replies.

the_cave · 03-13-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
(j/k, I know you're a guy).

Ha

Quote:

Reading works of ethics presumably involves using (and honing) critical thinking skills. Literature can be purely entertaining but is also an art form that can inspire reflection and insight into the human condition and the richness of life.

Believe me, if I think critically anywhere, it's church! But I admit I can't say the same for everyone.

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Nothing wrong with pure enjoyment!

Nope, and if I enjoy church, that's my bag. Actually a lot of services are somewhat dull, but it's not inherently so.

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Hey, I like that show! Plus, laughter releasese endorphins which is good for you.

If I laughed at "Just Shoot Me", I'd agree

On the other hand, some have said the same to me in regards to my enjoyment of "Frasier"...

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03-13-2003, 09:37 AM	#51
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	While some recognize the empty promises of worldly pursuits as so many lies and realize that: He who hates false living that evil guest which is to be nothing and have nothing He will find all the all gifts that heaven holds he who hates false living Rad

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