Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Anti-Creedance Front · 10-25-2002, 02:25 PM

Okay, this topic started out in the Zoroastrianism thread, and I carried it over to here to stay on subject. Sarpedon, that is really interesting that you note about Elohim and how the Bible refers to it/him as we. Yahweh is the name that I heard all throughout Catholic school and Lutheran Sunday school (my parents were different denoms), and it's well known that YHVH was the sacred tetragrammaton.

So even though Yahweh is said to be "God's name" in the Bible, it is essentially a Christian use of God's "sacred name" which even modern-day Jews do not use. If I'm not mistaken, Jews today say Elohim, Adonai, or g-d. Actually, I think Elohim relates to the Canaanite chief god El. There's an essay about this that I read on Internet Infidels itself. El is a component of many Hebrew names, such as Ezekiel, Samuel, etc. It's also the ending of ALL the archangels' names... Gabriel, Raphael, Raguel, Uriel, etc. including Lucifer. One of the many names for Satan is Samael, which must have been his original Hebrew name.

It is no doubt that the versions of the Bibles through the ages have been updated to be in line with modern times. I think it's in our interests to support these "KJV-only" people, because that's the most unfettered version of the Bible, and also the most erroneous at the same time. We can't allow the Bible to be revised again and again, because we will lose the fundamental things we've discovered about Christian origins, such as the connection to Mesopotamian pantheons, Mithra, etc.

Sarpedon · 10-27-2002, 04:22 AM

I once read an interesting (but quite incredible) internet theory that the name "Israel" is a combination of three words, your "El" along with two egyptian words "Is" a tomb or "eternal house", and Ra, the solar deity, with his name combined with the supreme hebrew deity, in a way that was common in egypt (Amun-Ra, Ra-Horus, Kheper-ra, etc) Now I don't speak hebrew or ancient egyptian, so I don't know whether "Is" actually means "eternal house" or whether Elohim actually means "the gods" but am merely repeating what I have seen elsewhere, and find credible (or if I find it incredible, I note that).

offa · 10-27-2002, 12:28 PM

Offa;
Excellent posts! New and refreshing. The fundies want to rewrite the bible to enhance their mystifications of the Virgin birth and of Jesus being a supernatural deity. The fact is, Joseph screwed Mary and their first born son was Jesus. James was born seven years later. Joseph and Clophas are the same.
The Egyptian Sun-God Re plays an important part of Hebrew mythology. Everything in the bible is stolen from more ancient cultures and the Jews were nothing more than a wart on a pigs ass. Their culture has no right to take over world politics today. I, myself, am lower than whaleshit, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. So, if I offend Jews, ... sorry (I would much rather be a Jew than a Christian).

thanks, Offa

Anti-Creedance Front · 10-27-2002, 07:07 PM

I suppose Egyptian mythology could have some influence on the Israelites, but I think Persia, Rome, and Mesopotamia would have the biggest influence on Judaism. The Jews were held in Egypt for some time, and they were also held in Babylon, but Babylon is definitely not their only link to Mesopotamia. The Jews were a Mesopotamian culture, even if they are Semitic, and not related to the original Mesopotamians. The land they settled on, as noted above, was once Canaan, and Abraham himself came from Ur. I think the gods that are most prevalent are from Roman, Persian, and Mesopotamian influence. However, I would like to hear more about this Ra story.

Liquidrage · 10-27-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anti-Creedance Front:
<strong>It is no doubt that the versions of the Bibles through the ages have been updated to be in line with modern times. I think it's in our interests to support these "KJV-only" people, because that's the most unfettered version of the Bible, and also the most erroneous at the same time. We can't allow the Bible to be revised again and again, because we will lose the fundamental things we've discovered about Christian origins, such as the connection to Mesopotamian pantheons, Mithra, etc.</strong>

Another reason that these modern rewrites of the Bible worry me is that they can be used to translate out contradictions and immoral (my modern standards) acts.

atrahasis · 10-27-2002, 08:59 PM

I think the most important thing here is that somebody has finally proved to christians that the bible is NOTinsipired by any "GOD" but copied text from mithraism,egyptian,sumerian culture and by be some from the oriential...

Leave alone the non-existence of any GOD also...........

Best
isaiah alias(BlackMoses)

Sarpedon · 10-28-2002, 04:39 AM

Lets not take the Bible claim of the exodus at face value. After all biblical "scholars" cannot even identify the pharaoh in question. I don't buy the idea of the jews being held in egypt. Undoubtably, there were semitic slaves in egypt, but the idea that the egyptians would transport an alien race into their homeland and settle them there is foreign to the egyptian mindset. The Assyrians and Babylonians however were known to do that, and there is evidence that it actually happened to the jews. My feeling is that after it happened once, it became a hebrew literary motif, which explains why the bible has the jews constantly being transported around. There are other ways that egypt could have influenced the hebrews. For example; All of the palestinian areas were repeatedly conquered by various pharaohs. Ahmose, Thutmosis III, Amenhotep II, Horemhab, Pepy, Ramses II and others. For the better part of 500 years during the new kingdom, the palestinian areas were intermittent vassals of egypt. There is no doubt that this would have led to considerable cultural exchanges, without a mass migration.

As for the Is-Ra-El theory, I encountered that while searching the web for information about Akhenaten and the Aten cult. I don't remember its directory or address. It was some time ago, and the site might be defunct. Good luck finding it again.

Sarpedon · 10-28-2002, 04:41 AM

Lets also not take the bible claim of Abraham coming from Ur at face value either. Odds are, Abraham is an entirely mythological character.

Geoff Hudson · 10-28-2002, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anti-Creedance Front:
<strong>
It is no doubt that the versions of the Bibles through the ages have been updated to be in line with modern times. I think it's in our interests to support these "KJV-only" people, because that's the most unfettered version of the Bible, and also the most erroneous at the same time. We can't allow the Bible to be revised again and again, because we will lose the fundamental things we've discovered about Christian origins, such as the connection to Mesopotamian pantheons, Mithra, etc.</strong>

If you think modern editors are messing around with the biblical text, just think of the opportunities the kings of Israel had to influence the text of the OT. The title of God LORD (Adonai = master), could have been introduced (and back-dated to earlier texts) during the times of Israel's kings. It may have suited the kings to introduce an ancient royal tradition into the representation of the divinity. They were masters of their people by decree of the heavenly one.

As an example, the LORD God appears "out of the blue" in Genesis 2.4. This is surely a later edit of text which starts in Genesis 1.1 with God and the Spirit of God. I see the use of LORD in many instances as an over-write.

It will be interesting to look at the Dead Sea Scrolls bible, but even this text could have been heavily influenced.

Geoff

CX · 10-28-2002, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anti-Creedance Front:
I think it's in our interests to support these "KJV-only" people, because that's the most unfettered version of the Bible, and also the most erroneous at the same time.

Would you care to support these assertions?

In what way is the KJV the "most unfettered"? Ultimately all translations are colored by the biases of the translators to varying degrees. Unless one takes the time to learn Koine and read a good critical text (which also contains biases, but, if it has a good critical apparatus, allows the reader to decide for him or herself which variant readings to accept) this is unavoidable. The problem with the KJV is that it is based on a handful of late Byzantine MSS and in some cases represents a reverse translation from Latin.

Secondly, on what basis do you assert that the KJV is the "most erroneous"?

10-25-2002, 02:25 PM	#1
Anti-Creedance Front Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 452	New Editions of the Bible Okay, this topic started out in the Zoroastrianism thread, and I carried it over to here to stay on subject. Sarpedon, that is really interesting that you note about Elohim and how the Bible refers to it/him as we. Yahweh is the name that I heard all throughout Catholic school and Lutheran Sunday school (my parents were different denoms), and it's well known that YHVH was the sacred tetragrammaton. So even though Yahweh is said to be "God's name" in the Bible, it is essentially a Christian use of God's "sacred name" which even modern-day Jews do not use. If I'm not mistaken, Jews today say Elohim, Adonai, or g-d. Actually, I think Elohim relates to the Canaanite chief god El. There's an essay about this that I read on Internet Infidels itself. El is a component of many Hebrew names, such as Ezekiel, Samuel, etc. It's also the ending of ALL the archangels' names... Gabriel, Raphael, Raguel, Uriel, etc. including Lucifer. One of the many names for Satan is Samael, which must have been his original Hebrew name. It is no doubt that the versions of the Bibles through the ages have been updated to be in line with modern times. I think it's in our interests to support these "KJV-only" people, because that's the most unfettered version of the Bible, and also the most erroneous at the same time. We can't allow the Bible to be revised again and again, because we will lose the fundamental things we've discovered about Christian origins, such as the connection to Mesopotamian pantheons, Mithra, etc.

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10-27-2002, 04:22 AM	#2
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	I once read an interesting (but quite incredible) internet theory that the name "Israel" is a combination of three words, your "El" along with two egyptian words "Is" a tomb or "eternal house", and Ra, the solar deity, with his name combined with the supreme hebrew deity, in a way that was common in egypt (Amun-Ra, Ra-Horus, Kheper-ra, etc) Now I don't speak hebrew or ancient egyptian, so I don't know whether "Is" actually means "eternal house" or whether Elohim actually means "the gods" but am merely repeating what I have seen elsewhere, and find credible (or if I find it incredible, I note that).

10-27-2002, 12:28 PM	#3
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Offa; Excellent posts! New and refreshing. The fundies want to rewrite the bible to enhance their mystifications of the Virgin birth and of Jesus being a supernatural deity. The fact is, Joseph screwed Mary and their first born son was Jesus. James was born seven years later. Joseph and Clophas are the same. The Egyptian Sun-God Re plays an important part of Hebrew mythology. Everything in the bible is stolen from more ancient cultures and the Jews were nothing more than a wart on a pigs ass. Their culture has no right to take over world politics today. I, myself, am lower than whaleshit, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. So, if I offend Jews, ... sorry (I would much rather be a Jew than a Christian). thanks, Offa

10-27-2002, 07:07 PM	#4
Anti-Creedance Front Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 452	I suppose Egyptian mythology could have some influence on the Israelites, but I think Persia, Rome, and Mesopotamia would have the biggest influence on Judaism. The Jews were held in Egypt for some time, and they were also held in Babylon, but Babylon is definitely not their only link to Mesopotamia. The Jews were a Mesopotamian culture, even if they are Semitic, and not related to the original Mesopotamians. The land they settled on, as noted above, was once Canaan, and Abraham himself came from Ur. I think the gods that are most prevalent are from Roman, Persian, and Mesopotamian influence. However, I would like to hear more about this Ra story.

10-27-2002, 08:59 PM	#6
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	I think the most important thing here is that somebody has finally proved to christians that the bible is NOTinsipired by any "GOD" but copied text from mithraism,egyptian,sumerian culture and by be some from the oriential... Leave alone the non-existence of any GOD also........... Best isaiah alias(BlackMoses)

10-28-2002, 04:39 AM	#7
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Lets not take the Bible claim of the exodus at face value. After all biblical "scholars" cannot even identify the pharaoh in question. I don't buy the idea of the jews being held in egypt. Undoubtably, there were semitic slaves in egypt, but the idea that the egyptians would transport an alien race into their homeland and settle them there is foreign to the egyptian mindset. The Assyrians and Babylonians however were known to do that, and there is evidence that it actually happened to the jews. My feeling is that after it happened once, it became a hebrew literary motif, which explains why the bible has the jews constantly being transported around. There are other ways that egypt could have influenced the hebrews. For example; All of the palestinian areas were repeatedly conquered by various pharaohs. Ahmose, Thutmosis III, Amenhotep II, Horemhab, Pepy, Ramses II and others. For the better part of 500 years during the new kingdom, the palestinian areas were intermittent vassals of egypt. There is no doubt that this would have led to considerable cultural exchanges, without a mass migration. As for the Is-Ra-El theory, I encountered that while searching the web for information about Akhenaten and the Aten cult. I don't remember its directory or address. It was some time ago, and the site might be defunct. Good luck finding it again.

10-28-2002, 04:41 AM	#8
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Lets also not take the bible claim of Abraham coming from Ur at face value either. Odds are, Abraham is an entirely mythological character.

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