Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 03-05-2003, 03:11 AM

One hardly knows whether to laugh or cry. Weeden is a major Mark scholar who first published in the 1970s. Suddenly he discovers what skeptics have been saying since....does anyone even remember the first skeptic to notice these parallels? Evans published in 2001! I know Eisenman discussed this before, and I am certain he is not the first. Can we at least acknowledge a debt here?

Weeden writes:

Craig Evans, in the course of exploring in his _Jesus and His Contemporaries_ (345-365) how Jesus?action against the Temple may have contributed to his crucifixion, draws attention to what he finds to be "the closest parallel" to Jesus?Temple activity, namely, the activity of one Jesus, son of Ananias, who harangued against the Temple and Jerusalem some thirty years after Jesus (361). Using an abridged translation of the text of Josephus�story of Jesus, son of Ananias (_J.W._, VI. 300-309), Evans engages in pinpointing for his readers specific parallels he finds between Jesus of Nazareth, as presented in the canonical Gospels, and Jesus, the son of Ananias.

Weeden then goes on to list the parallels:

And now for Evans observations, I quote him in full: "There are several important parallels between the Temple-related experiences of Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus son of Ananias. Both entered the precincts of the Temple (TO hIERON : Mark 11:11, 15, 27: 12:35; 13:1; 14:49; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01) at the time of a religious festival (hEORTH: Mark 14:2; 15:6; John 2:23; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both spoke of the doom of Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44; 21:20-24; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?01), the Sanctuary (NAOS: Mark 13:2; 14:58; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01), and the people (LAOS: Mark 13:17; Luke 19:44; 23:28-31; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01). Both apparently alluded to Jeremiah 7, where the prophet condemned the Temple establishment of his day (�cave of robbers?: Jer 7:11 in Mark 11:17: �the voice against the bridegroom and the bride?: Jer 7:34 in _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?01). Both were "arrested" by the authority of Jewish--not Roman--leaders (SULLAMBANEIN: Mark 14:48; John 18:12; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both were beaten by the Jewish authorities (PAIEIN: Matt 26:68; Mark 14:65; J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both were handed over to the Roman governor (HYAYON AUTON EPI TON PILATON: Luke 23: 1; ANAGOUSIN . . . EPI TON . . . EPARCON: _J. W._ 6.5.3 ?03). Both were interrogated by the Roman governor (ERWTAN: Mark 15:4; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?05). Both refused to answer the governor (OUDEN APOKRIVESQAI: Mark 15:5; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?05). Both were scourged by the governor (MASTIGOUN/MASTIX: John 19:1; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?04). Governor Pilate may have offered to release Jesus of Nazareth, but did not; Governor Albinus did release Jesus son of Ananias (APOLUEIN: Mark 15:9; _J. W._ 6.5.3 ?05)."

Weeden list several others he discovered that Evans missed due to his having used an abridgement of Josephus.

We've now reached the phase of the methodology crisis where the "mainstream" is suddenly going to discover what skeptics have been saying since forever. <sigh> And incorporate it as their own.

Vorkosigan

Toto · 03-05-2003, 11:27 AM

Weeden's post

reply

I have been reading The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Harold Leidner, which I might write more on later. Leidner notes that of the 18 clearly identifiable Jesus' mentioned in Josephus, at least 6 show linkages to the Gospel story. These include

Jesus son of Naue, the scriptural Joshua son of Nun
Jesus, son of the high priest Jozadak, the scriptural Jeshua, the high priest of the return and the rebuilding of the Temple who figures prominently in the book of Zechariah
Jesus son of Joiada and brother of the high priest Joannes [John], who was murdered by Joannes
Jesus, son of Gamalas, high priest, who was also slain in Jerusalem by the Zealots, with divine vengeance upon the city.
Jesus, son of Ananias, discussed by Weeden, Leidner says this "comes close to plagarism by the gospel writers."
Jesus, brigand chief

The first two in the list have numerous parallels in the gospels, which can be explained by early Christian midrash of the Septuagint.

godfry n. glad · 03-05-2003, 11:34 AM

And here's an additional question:

Is the "Ananias" who was the father of this Jesus, the same "Ananus" who was the high priest who exercised his wrath on the hapless James in _AotJ_ 20.200?

godfry

Vorkosigan · 03-05-2003, 02:45 PM

That would help explain why Jesus the Crier of Doom was only spanked and set free, and not simply executed.

Vorkosigan

godfry n. glad · 03-05-2003, 03:22 PM

And... Don't forget: This Jesus, Crier of Doom, was unquestionably _correct_ about the destruction of Jerusalem...for some seven years in advance of the actual event, according to Josephus.

That's some prophet, eh?

godfry
(I personally prefer working for non-prophet organizations)

Toto · 03-06-2003, 11:07 AM

Vork - in answer to your question on XTalk, Mason (who is not a radical) says this about Jesus son of Ananias:

Quote:

Second, Josephus describes a coincidence of interest between Jewish chief-priestly circles and the Roman government. He presents the chief priests by and large as favoring cooperation with Rome, even in the face of severe provocation. Not only do these eminent citizens support the governors� harsh treatment of political terrorists and religious fanatics, they also cooperate in removing such troublesome individuals. A particularly interesting case concerns one Jesus son of Ananias, a common peasant who predicted the fall of the temple four years before the outbreak of the revolt. For more than seven years, especially at festivals, he would cry, �Woe to Jerusalem!� and �A voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary, a voice against the bridegroom and the bride, a voice against all the people.� The exasperated temple leaders punished him without success, and eventually passed him over to the Roman governor. As he would not answer any questions, he was flayed to the bone and released on grounds of insanity (War 6.300�309). This cooperation of the leading citizens with the Romans, when it came to a person who had disrupted the already tense festival periods in Jerusalem, fits with the general picture of political relations painted by Josephus. This picture in turn helps one to imagine some cooperation between the Jewish leadership and the Roman governor in the trial of Jesus.

Ananias and Ananus do not appear to be variants of the same name. Ananus is also known as Annas.

godfry n. glad · 03-06-2003, 02:11 PM

Sidebar, here....

Just how is one supposed to pronounce "Ananus" and "Annas"?

I've been a bit bemused pronouncing it "an anus", as in a singlular sphincter. Should it be "a nan us", like bananas without the "b"? I suspect my pronunciation has been wrong, but still....

And "Annas"... Is that like the herb, anise, or like a singular burro, "an ass"?

godfry

Spaz · 03-06-2003, 02:12 PM

wouldn't that be jesi?

Vorkosigan · 03-06-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Vork - in answer to your question on XTalk, Mason (who is not a radical) says this about Jesus son of Ananias:

Thanks, Toto! Incredible. Mason notices every parallel, without noticing that they ARE parallels. <sigh>

Vorkosigan

Toto · 03-06-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Thanks, Toto! Incredible. Mason notices every parallel, without noticing that they ARE parallels. <sigh>

Vorkosigan

Mason is not a Jesus-myther. He accepts the reference to "James the brother of Jesus" as evidence of a historical Jesus (he is very equivocal about the longer passage in Josephus.)

He appears to me to be very cautious and academic, and not out to do any radical revisionism on the current paradigm. This is why it is so persuasive when he concludes that the author of Luke-Acts probably relied on Josephus as a source.

As a reminder, you can download a Word rtf document of his book from the link in this thread

03-05-2003, 03:11 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Two Jesuses: Weeden on XTALK One hardly knows whether to laugh or cry. Weeden is a major Mark scholar who first published in the 1970s. Suddenly he discovers what skeptics have been saying since....does anyone even remember the first skeptic to notice these parallels? Evans published in 2001! I know Eisenman discussed this before, and I am certain he is not the first. Can we at least acknowledge a debt here? Weeden writes: Craig Evans, in the course of exploring in his _Jesus and His Contemporaries_ (345-365) how Jesus?action against the Temple may have contributed to his crucifixion, draws attention to what he finds to be "the closest parallel" to Jesus?Temple activity, namely, the activity of one Jesus, son of Ananias, who harangued against the Temple and Jerusalem some thirty years after Jesus (361). Using an abridged translation of the text of Josephus�story of Jesus, son of Ananias (_J.W._, VI. 300-309), Evans engages in pinpointing for his readers specific parallels he finds between Jesus of Nazareth, as presented in the canonical Gospels, and Jesus, the son of Ananias. Weeden then goes on to list the parallels: And now for Evans observations, I quote him in full: "There are several important parallels between the Temple-related experiences of Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus son of Ananias. Both entered the precincts of the Temple (TO hIERON : Mark 11:11, 15, 27: 12:35; 13:1; 14:49; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01) at the time of a religious festival (hEORTH: Mark 14:2; 15:6; John 2:23; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both spoke of the doom of Jerusalem (Luke 19:41-44; 21:20-24; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?01), the Sanctuary (NAOS: Mark 13:2; 14:58; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01), and the people (LAOS: Mark 13:17; Luke 19:44; 23:28-31; _J.W. 6.5.3 ?01). Both apparently alluded to Jeremiah 7, where the prophet condemned the Temple establishment of his day (�cave of robbers?: Jer 7:11 in Mark 11:17: �the voice against the bridegroom and the bride?: Jer 7:34 in _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?01). Both were "arrested" by the authority of Jewish--not Roman--leaders (SULLAMBANEIN: Mark 14:48; John 18:12; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both were beaten by the Jewish authorities (PAIEIN: Matt 26:68; Mark 14:65; J.W._ 6.5.3 ?02). Both were handed over to the Roman governor (HYAYON AUTON EPI TON PILATON: Luke 23: 1; ANAGOUSIN . . . EPI TON . . . EPARCON: _J. W._ 6.5.3 ?03). Both were interrogated by the Roman governor (ERWTAN: Mark 15:4; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?05). Both refused to answer the governor (OUDEN APOKRIVESQAI: Mark 15:5; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?05). Both were scourged by the governor (MASTIGOUN/MASTIX: John 19:1; _J.W._ 6.5.3 ?04). Governor Pilate may have offered to release Jesus of Nazareth, but did not; Governor Albinus did release Jesus son of Ananias (APOLUEIN: Mark 15:9; _J. W._ 6.5.3 ?05)." Weeden list several others he discovered that Evans missed due to his having used an abridgement of Josephus. We've now reached the phase of the methodology crisis where the "mainstream" is suddenly going to discover what skeptics have been saying since forever. <sigh> And incorporate it as their own. Vorkosigan

03-05-2003, 11:27 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Weeden's post reply I have been reading The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Harold Leidner, which I might write more on later. Leidner notes that of the 18 clearly identifiable Jesus' mentioned in Josephus, at least 6 show linkages to the Gospel story. These include Jesus son of Naue, the scriptural Joshua son of Nun Jesus, son of the high priest Jozadak, the scriptural Jeshua, the high priest of the return and the rebuilding of the Temple who figures prominently in the book of Zechariah Jesus son of Joiada and brother of the high priest Joannes [John], who was murdered by Joannes Jesus, son of Gamalas, high priest, who was also slain in Jerusalem by the Zealots, with divine vengeance upon the city. Jesus, son of Ananias, discussed by Weeden, Leidner says this "comes close to plagarism by the gospel writers." Jesus, brigand chief The first two in the list have numerous parallels in the gospels, which can be explained by early Christian midrash of the Septuagint.

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03-05-2003, 11:34 AM	#3
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	And here's an additional question: Is the "Ananias" who was the father of this Jesus, the same "Ananus" who was the high priest who exercised his wrath on the hapless James in _AotJ_ 20.200? godfry

03-05-2003, 02:45 PM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	That would help explain why Jesus the Crier of Doom was only spanked and set free, and not simply executed. Vorkosigan

03-05-2003, 03:22 PM	#5
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	And... Don't forget: This Jesus, Crier of Doom, was unquestionably _correct_ about the destruction of Jerusalem...for some seven years in advance of the actual event, according to Josephus. That's some prophet, eh? godfry (I personally prefer working for non-prophet organizations)

03-06-2003, 02:11 PM	#7
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	Sidebar, here.... Just how is one supposed to pronounce "Ananus" and "Annas"? I've been a bit bemused pronouncing it "an anus", as in a singlular sphincter. Should it be "a nan us", like bananas without the "b"? I suspect my pronunciation has been wrong, but still.... And "Annas"... Is that like the herb, anise, or like a singular burro, "an ass"? godfry

03-06-2003, 02:12 PM	#8
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	wouldn't that be jesi?

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