tdekeyser

From what I understand of Christianity, god set the moral standards for mankind. If not, we would all be doing immoral things and going amuck, right? We would do this because we are disgusting, dirty, horrible, sick, preverse, sinful creatures (according to that odd system of belief).

So we need the threat of a punishing god to FEAR, so that we do not allow our horrible nature take control.

So, if I choose to be moral without a belief in god, then I am not a disgusting preverse sinner am I?

So being a moral atheist, I am not a sinner. YEA!

emotional

First, Christians would say "moral atheist" is an oxymoron. Atheism in itself is immoral.

Second, being a sinner according to Christianity is separate from morality. A moral life, but with disobedience of god (which in Christianity is mere rejection of Jesus), is a life of sin.

Take a random Chick Tract and see how the Christian god judges people. Not according to their morality, but according to the single arbitrary criterion of accepting or rejecting Jesus. There is no concept whatsoever of moral accountability in Christianity.

Shake

Well, some theists will throw the 'Original Sin' argument at you, saying that we are all sinners regardless of how we live our lives. Some will also argue that your sinning is independent of your belief system. You can still sin, according to their definitions, even if you don't accept what they call sins.

To me, the word "sin" carries religious connotations, and for me, being atheist, the word has no meaning personally. Now, I'll still use the word as a figure of speech, e.g. "It'd be a sin to let that last cookie go to waste." But in my use, there's no religious overtones or baggage associated with it. So maybe I should purge it from my vocabulary (save for when arguing with Xians) and use "shame" instead.

If you're asking, "Can I be a moral atheist?" I'd say, absolutely.

Magus55

Sin may not have any meaning to you, but that doesn't mean you are exempt from it. Basically you are saying, if you don't believe in the laws of the U.S government, then you are free to break them without punishment, since they have no meaning to you.

You can pretend sin doesn't exist all you want, but if God is real ( for the skeptics), then you are sinful, whether you agree with it or not.

DMB

As I understand it there are two possible explanations for your innate sinfulness:

1. The omnimax god in his infinite and incomprehensible wisdom designed all human beings to be that way. (I think it may have something to do with free will, but the connection is a little loose).
2. Adam and Eve ate some fruit in the garden of Eden and that did for all humankind. (No. I don't understand it either.)

You have to be sinful so that works alone will not save you, but faith will.

mark9950

The God of the bible is the God of the Israelites and the Israelites are the only ones to worship this God,everyone else should worship the stars.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 recognizes the god-like status of stars, noting that they were created for other peoples to worship.

Biff the unclean

But if Jesus died to conquer sin, and you are not judged by your works then you should be just fine. Because what counted is that Jesus paid the price for you, which you never could. So your own work, like deciding to believe, cannot save you-least you become proud.
If people are still being sent to Hell then Jesus didn't save them and is a failure as a Savior.
If people are saved because they believe then they are saved by their own acts and Jesus is superfluous as a Savior and died unnecessarily.
If Jesus already paid the price of man's sins then it doesn't matter if you believe. The sin of lack of belief has already been paid for.
If Jesus preformed as advertised the word "sin" becomes meaningless.
If you are still punished for sin then the word "Messiah" becomes meaningless.
If you must buy your way into Heaven by trading faith for salvation then the condemnation of the sale of indulgences becomes meaningless.

Magus55

You seem to be confusing Jesus' making it possible for all to be saved through His sacrifice, and Jesus' saving everyone from sin whether they agreed to it or not. The latter removes free will.

Jesus died to give everyone the opportunity to be saved through Him. Had Jesus not died for our sins, there would have been absolutely no way for us to ever escape punishment. Everyone would be going to Hell no matter what. But just because Jesus was the sacrifice for our salvation, doesn't mean He is gonna force it on us.

Jesus opened the door to salvation, but we still have to walk through it.

Magus55

It doesn't recognize the god-like status of stars, it just says some people worship nature and creation, instead of the creator. Wiccan's and cultures like the Egyptians ( who worshipped the Sun) fall into these categories. It says nothing about the stars actually being gods. God was just pointing out that people worship them as though they were.

Biff the unclean

You seem to be confusing Jesus' making it possible for all to be saved through His sacrifice, and Jesus' saving everyone from sin whether they agreed to it or not.
Ahh, now that's Roman Catholicism, where god judges you on you behavior.

The latter removes free will.
Free Will is never mentioned in the bible. Where it is referred to obliquely it is condemned and superceded by god.

Jesus died to give everyone the opportunity to be saved through Him. Had Jesus not died for our sins, there would have been absolutely no way for us to ever escape punishment.
Then you are saying that you are saved by something that you yourself personally decide to do. You are saved by your own works.

Everyone would be going to Hell no matter what. But just because Jesus was the sacrifice for our salvation, doesn't mean He is gonna force it on us.
Which makes Jesus helpless to save us unless we do something. That means that we are saving ourselves through our own actions. Like if a life guard saw you drowning and rowed out to you but stopped before he got to you. 'Hey you over there splashing around! Swim over here a couple of hundred yards and I'll let you climb into the boat.' That's not what I'd call "saving" someone.

Jesus opened the door to salvation, but we still have to walk through it.
And that "walking" is what is called "works" and shows Jesus to not actually be a savior.