lpetrich

Continued from the end of the "Christians cannot even convert hindus!" thread:

Let's see...

Very generous of you.

Also very generous.

Yes, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. But there also, the young Jesus Christ is portrayed as a very precocious boy. So we might have to revise Lord Raglan's childhood criterion to include stories of childhood precocity.

But he had an initial circle of followers who were from Galilee.

However, I don't consider MM a wicked woman. Is she supposed to be wicked because she is supposed to be a whore? There are things I consider wicked, but being a slut or a whore is not one of them.

I think that he qualifies as an honorary king here -- he's supposedly a great prophet. Ever heard of the phrase "Christ the King"?

Most of those events are late in his career. However, his preaching phase, whether in Galilee (the Synoptics) or Jerusalem (John) is relatively uneventful.

"The Law" does not exclude other laws, such as Jesus Christ's teachings.

Judas turning against him fits Lord Raglan's profile very well, as do the authorities and that lynch mob both coming after him.

Only if one is extremely literal-minded.

What is mysterious is that he "died" there, rather than jumping off of it. Here was someone who supposedly could walk on water, conjure up bread and fish and turn water into wine, drive demons out of people and raise the dead, and even zap a fig tree, and he can't do something simple like jump off a cross?

He's in such eminent company as Moses on Mt. Pisgah and Hercules on Mt. Oeta. However, I've nowhere else seen such a claim for execution sites.

I stand corrected, but he nevertheless satisfies that criterion by being childless. Even if Mary Magdalene, for example, had had his kids, they have gone unmentioned.

But it didn't stay there, so I stand on my count.

Totally beside the point. Why is his supposed tomb something of a pilgrimage site?

I still believe my original score to be correct.

Excellent URL: <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm</a>

Debunked in <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/history/american/linckenn.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes2.com/history/american/linckenn.htm</a>

Similarities need not prove mutual non-existence; it's similarities to fictional people that suggest fictionality.

Also, I've attempted to score JFK on the Raglan scale, and I get at most 6, and that is with the help of interpretations that some have considered generous.

GunnerJ

Bump. FarSeeker, are you out there?

GunnerJ

Bumporama.

FarSeeker

Umm, Just about every crucifixion at Jerusalem during Roman times?
The French Revolution guillotine was supposed to be set high off the ground so more people could witness it.
Many, if not most, old time hangings in the American west are reputed to be on scaffolding, or a high place, again for easy viewing.

Concerning the Lincoln—Kennedy similarities:
The web site given has the debunkers using the non-similarities to attempt disproof. Meaning the nearly infinite dissimilarities between Jesus and the others disproves lpetrich’s claims.

But if similarities between fictional and claimed historical events suggest fictionality, the perhaps we should talk about the books “The Titan” (I think that was the title) and any book you wish to suggest about the Titanic. I think there were actually multiple books about a large, “unsinkable” ship being sunk by an iceberg before the Titanic actually sank. So your reasoning fails.

lpetrich

Only if one does an absurd amount of hairsplitting. For my part, I find it hard to see the big difference between Jesus Christ being the son of a god and a virgin and Romulus and Remus being the sons of a god and a virgin.

However, that novel can be interpreted as speculative fiction based on extrapolation from known facts. Consider:

Icebergs exist; they are floating ice blocks often much bigger than ships.
When ships hit icebergs, they get damaged and they can sink.
Ocean liners are getting bigger and bigger.
However, even very big ones will be smaller than many icebergs.
Ocean liners carry lots of people, with bigger ones carrying more people.
People can get killed when ships sink.

Thus,

If a big ocean liner hits an iceberg, it is likely to get damaged and it can possibly sink.
If that happens, lots and lots of people can get killed.

However, there is a lack of similar factual support for anyone following Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero Profile, because most well-documented people score poorly on Lord Raglan's scale. In effect, real people don't fit the LR profile, suggesting that someone who fits the LR profile is either not a real person or someone whose biography has been heavily rewritten.

Furthermore, the Titanic's existence and voyage are abundantly documented, to an extent that is totally lacking for Jesus Christ.

Finally, "Titan" is an appropriate name for something big, like a big ocean liner. Thus, the Titanic's name.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>