Celsus

Hi Answerer,

[quote] Well, actually, my hometown christian friends do and there are lots of them as well. So, what do you think I should tell them in order to convince them otherwise?[/quote
Invite me over. Where's your hometown?

I usually begin with the Dionysus/Mithra/Jesus parallel - not because it's necessarily accurate, but because that removes everything from the gospels that they care to bring up. Then I tell them that Paul was looked on as a Gnostic by many early Christians and talk about what Paul might have meant when he talked about "Jesus". Usually by this point they don't know what to say, and are asking silly questions.

You can get some great books at Borders or Kinokuniya here (but Amazon is cheaper, though you can and should at least browse at the bookshops first). I just got Ellegård's Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ at Borders, and I saw Vermes' The Changing Faces of Jesus and Price's Deconstructing Jesus there too. If you want something lighter, look out for Matthew Sturgis' It Ain't Necessarily So, or Freke and Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries to cover the OT and NT respectively. Actually it's best to start off with lighter books, because you must be really into this stuff if you want to go further. Like I'm struggling through Eisenman's 1000-page James the Brother of Jesus even though I really enjoyed it for the first 400 or so pages. The main point is to shift your Christian friends to an agnostic position, and then they can try and settle on whatever they choose objectively (which is what I'm attempting right now, though it's probably impossible for a layman).

Joel
P.S. But seriously, we should get some Singaporean/Southeast Asian infidels together for a makan session. Any kopitiam auso can

Bobzammel

*Parts* of the bible are true. It would be the height of idiocy to state that everything is false!
A lot of the bible is based on some actual history. However there are some errors in that history (Check out www.skepticsannotatedbible.com and their "Conflicts with science and history") and at times there appears to be a possible political or religious bias at work.
Mixing historical conflicts and supernatural events were not uncommon. Take the Illiad and the Oddysey, which describe a real war but with some obvious embellishments. Emperors, Pharoahs etc. were considered divine and some were even said to have done miracles.

Toto

What you want to ask about is the "historical accuracy of the gospels". If you use those terms, people will be able to know what you are looking for.

You are absolutely correct - just because something is written in an ancient document does not make it true. However, there is an entire branch of endeavor known as "Christian Apologetics" which tries to justify the historical value of the gospels. You will find that Christian Apologists make a lot of strange logical leaps that don't make sense to anyone outside their ingroup, but they say them so fast and so confidently that it is often hard to get them to stop and realize the problems. Why do intelligent people fall for it? Look up "cognitive dissonance."

You will find a lot of good material in the Infidels Library. Look for essays by Jeffrey Lowder and Richard Carrier.

For example, The Historicity of Jesus' Resurrection or

The Jury is In

Secular Pinoy

What's a makan session? kopitiam auso? I'm South-East Asian but I have no idea what those are.

But back on topic, it can be bewildering to read a lot of different opinions on the bible. Take the Historical Jesus topic for instance. There's the "extremist" Jesus Mythers, the "liberal" Jesus Seminar, the Mainstream Jesus Scholars, the Alternative Jesus from a Jewish Perspective, and, of course, the Christ of Faith. I just found this really interesting bookstore here in Metro Manila, they have several Jesus books by Chilton, Grant, Borg, Fredriksen and Vermes. I think I have the whole month or two covered. And I'm still wading through Crossan's Historical Jesus book.

Answerer

Kopitiam simply means coffee shop and makan session simply means 'eating time'(like lunch, dinner, etc). Those words could be regarded as a form of Singlish which we often used, so it is not surprising that you are not used to it.

Anyway, Celsus, I see your point. Actually, I, myself, had read those books often and have a number of them but now, the problem is my chrisitan friends enjoyed to view those books and sometimes, my arguments, as 'works and words of Satan' (you know how extreme some Singaporean christians can be). To make things worse, some of my 'religious-tolerant' friends of othe religions supported the 'orthodox' christian beliefs(which they know nothing about) and refuse to listen to my 'nonsense'. So, as you can see, most of them rather believe in the media craps and their pastors rather than some logical reasonings(they even go to the extent of condemning evolution and big bang theory privately). I don't blame them for their mentality but I had already long given up hope of convincing them to see otherwise(unless I see some new and better ideas). Damn, maybe I should have stopped them from joining christinity in the first place, but I guess that it is too late for regret now.

So guys, please be careful not to repeat my mistakes.



:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Celsus

Hi Answerer,

I agree heartily, and Singaporean Christians can be quite horrible. Back to the OP, I feel that for a layman, agnostic is the only rational answer on biblical criticism. Archaeology is another matter, but evidence of Jesus doesn't really fit into that category. (though admittedly, I haven't read Crossan's book on it)

Joel

Amos

Just think, all that confusion cause by a bunch of primitive sheep herders.

CX

Come on, Amos! You've been here long enough to know they were ignorant Bronze Age goat herders.