Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tronvillain · 11-07-2002, 08:42 PM

Quote:

The full experience with NDE results in brain dead where the brain shut off itself, thus that shows that the reason for NDE (most logical one anyway) is that Brain produce this to face it's own demise. In that context, the analogy of "virtual simulation algorithm " fits better than a stress releaser.

1. The brain does not "shut off itself." It simply ceases to function as a result of damage.

2. It is not at all clear that a NDE is in fact something that is actually experienced, rather than something which is simply remembered. If that is the case, then someone who undergoes brain death never encounters NDE elements.

3. The NDE phenomenon appears to be the product of a variety of random brain processes, and so it is not clear why you think there should be any "reason" for NDE, logical or otherwise.

11-07-2002, 09:16 PM

"1. The brain does not "shut off itself." It simply ceases to function as a result of damage."

My reply : In another word, the brain doesn't kill itself off.

"2. It is not at all clear that a NDE is in fact something that is actually experienced, rather than something which is simply remembered. If that is the case, then someone who undergoes brain death never encounters NDE elements."

My reply : Which has no way proving (whether a person experience brain death experience NDE as well) since brain death IS irreversible.

"3. The NDE phenomenon appears to be the product of a variety of random brain processes, and so it is not clear why you think there should be any "reason" for NDE, logical or otherwise."

My reply : You are not clear why there should be a reason for it? Because the brain doesn't do something illogical simply because it felt like it. The brain always been the main "CPU" of the body, and EVERYTHING it does is for the survival of the organism that it occupies.

I don't see why it has to do something without any reason like NDE. Matter a fact, I prepare to withdraw my statement IF someone shows me an illogical action done by a human brain which doesn't fit logic.

Heathen Dawn · 11-07-2002, 09:44 PM

However the idea of immortality may be attractive (especially for a person like me who has voiced his fear of death), a sober look reveals that the case for it is as tenuous as that for geocentrism. To quote the Freethought Mecca on that:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/philomind.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/philomind.html</a>

Quote:

Clearly, an independent investigation must attempt to detach from the prominent value-laden concepts of human identity. Pascalian wagers carry with them anthropocentric presuppositions that echo the past justifications for geocentrism, and denial of common descent. Unlike stars or amoebas, by some providence, individual Homo sapiens will never be extinguished. The 100% death rate magically becomes its antithesis.

Check. Under the evolutionary worldview, where we are just another species among many, it happens that if we don't attribute immortality to other creatures, we can't attribute it to ourselves.

Also, think of the logistics of immortality: every person that is born is new; does that mean a new immortal soul is made every time a person is born? With all those persons born and dead through the ages, can you imagine how crammed the soul-world is?

If this life of mine is just one among many others that preceded it, how is it that only this one is the one I'm fully aware of? What happened to all my "forelives"? Why does memory stretch only to the maximum of years I'm alive now? What happened to the memories of past lives?

11-07-2002, 09:57 PM

"every person that is born is new; does that mean a new immortal soul is made every time a person is born? With all those persons born and dead through the ages, can you imagine how crammed the soul-world is?"

My reply : This is Christian and Muslims' point of view, which I don't share. I don't see why humans need to be born for a short time only to spend eternity in heaven. Muslims consider that the soul of their departed do not depart fully, instead, it sleeps within the dead body in the ground, which is why they bury their dead.

"If this life of mine is just one among many others that preceded it, how is it that only this one is the one I'm fully aware of? What happened to all my "forelives"? Why does memory stretch only to the maximum of years I'm alive now? What happened to the memories of past lives? "

My reply : Here's my question - WHY do you need to remember your past life? What will happen if you remember your past life?

For one, you will be confuse with varies emotions and attachments if you do remember how you lived in your pervious life and at the same time, you will be ill-fit to live in this life since you will be literal occupying two lives in one time.

But some of the skills you learn from your pervious life does carry forward to this by your sub-consciousness in form of "hidden" talents which surfaces when you do not expect it. Mine for example has to do with fencing (as in sword fighting) and martial arts. There are varies people who has varies skills which displayed at tender ages, so your pervious life experience is not totally a waste, if you seeks to learn from it.

Ms. Siv · 11-07-2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
"1. Complete brain death is irreversible. So what we know about NDEs is not from people who recovered from brain death ... because one cannot do so. Period."
My reply : Yes, as I stated earlier. You will probably never know the full extend of a NDE simply because no one experience it fully and lived to tell about it.

If someone were to experience it "fully" ... as you put it, that would be a death experience and not an NDE

Quote:

"2. It has never been suggested that the NDE is a virtual simulation algorithm intended to make the person face real death. Its just the result of stress. When faced with extreme stress, this is what happens to the brain - random firing of neurons etc. And this stress is experienced by the brain of the person having the NDE or OBE as an NDE or OBE."

My reply : I believe you are contradicting your own statement above. The full experience with NDE results in brain dead where the brain shut off itself, thus that shows that the reason for NDE (most logical one anyway) is that Brain produce this to face it's own demise. In that context, the analogy of "virtual simulation algorithm " fits better than a stress releaser.

My statement is supported by the fact that NDE and OBE occurs to someone who is relaxed as well and not on someone who is on stress alone. I've seen numerous experience (through discovery channel) and experienced it myself (a few times) in a very stress-free situation to show as evidence that NDE may not fit as a Stress releaser.

Again ... strawman. Noone said it was a stress-releiver. There is some evidence for pain relief but thats about it.
When the brain faces extreme stress, certain phenomena happen to it, resulting in the person experiencing an NDE. Thats all.
The same can be (and has been) simulated with drugs and artificially stimulating certain regions of the brain.

- Sivakami.

tronvillain · 11-07-2002, 10:04 PM

Seraphim:

Quote:

In another word, the brain doesn't kill itself off.

Yes, that is what I said, and the opposite of what you appeared to be asserting earlier.

Quote:

Which has no way proving (whether a person experience brain death experience NDE as well) since brain death IS irreversible.

Well, presumably the issue could be decided given sufficient understanding of the mechanisms behind NDE. Anyway, you made an assertion and I pointed out that it very well might not be the case.

Quote:

You are not clear why there should be a reason for it? Because the brain doesn't do something illogical simply because it felt like it. The brain always been the main "CPU" of the body, and EVERYTHING it does is for the survival of the organism that it occupies.

Nonsense. As the product of evolution by natural selection the human brain is not optimized to promote survival in every situation. The simplest explanation of NDE is that they are the unintended byproduct of the human brain being in unusual states. Just look at Blackmoore's explanation of the tunnel effect! It is simply a matter of increasing random noise in the visual cortex, which seems far more likely to be a result of the breakdown of normal brain operation than an effect selected for by the tiny number of ancestral individuals who did not die after achieving such a state.

11-07-2002, 10:37 PM

By Sivakami :

"If someone were to experience it "fully" ... as you put it, that would be a death experience and not an NDE "

My reply : Yes, which is why I said the difference between a person who had NDE and lives to tell about and one who has NDE but doesn't live is one is dead and another is not. Since death is one time experience (per person), where NDE leads, we will never know till we go all the way.

"Again ... strawman. Noone said it was a stress-releiver. There is some evidence for pain relief but thats about it.
When the brain faces extreme stress, certain phenomena happen to it, resulting in the person experiencing an NDE. Thats all.
The same can be (and has been) simulated with drugs and artificially stimulating certain regions of the brain."

My reply : strawman?
NDE as stress reliever, pain reliever and death reliever? How many roles does it play?

You also forgeting that stress (or pain) ALONE is not the factor which causes NDE. Monks who mediate experience NDE and person who are very relaxed experience NDE (but I have yet to hear hypnosis producing such phenomena).

I was introduced to an artificial drug called Ketamine which promote such activity, and this drug will be useful in studying NDE.

By tronvillain :

"Yes, that is what I said, and the opposite of what you appeared to be asserting earlier."

My reply : I simply applying that IF NDE is a product of the brain, it shouldn't lead to dead since that is like the brain commiting suicide.

"Well, presumably the issue could be decided given sufficient understanding of the mechanisms behind NDE. Anyway, you made an assertion and I pointed out that it very well might not be the case."

My reply : Not very sure what you pointed out, but either way, I agree. This issue has too many questions to be answer till some proper understanding of the mechanism behind it is discovered.

"Nonsense. As the product of evolution by natural selection the human brain is not optimized to promote survival in every situation. The simplest explanation of NDE is that they are the unintended byproduct of the human brain being in unusual states. Just look at Blackmoore's explanation of the tunnel effect! It is simply a matter of increasing random noise in the visual cortex, which seems far more likely to be a result of the breakdown of normal brain operation than an effect selected for by the tiny number of ancestral individuals who did not die after achieving such a state. "

My reply : Unattended byproduct of the brain in unusual states? Very interesting if not lame. And why kind of unusual states (examples) may I ask does the brain find itself in which requires it to come out with illusion to fool itself?

As for Blackmoore's explaination, I could like a link or something since I have very slight memory of reading about it somewhere and then I could make a proper counterexplaination.

As for that ancestal whatever ... I don't understand that part.

Heathen Dawn · 11-08-2002, 02:30 AM

(bold - quoting Seraphim)

This is Christian and Muslims' point of view, which I don't share. I don't see why humans need to be born for a short time only to spend eternity in heaven.

I wasn't talking about that. The problem of the logistics of souls stays the same even if you assume reincarnation, for each person born is a new personality. If you say souls transmigrate between bodies, then who did they transmigrate from when the human population was lower? And does it follow that an ape's soul transmigrated into a body of a human? Again, I'm hinting that the thesis of human soul is made quite incredible by the fact of evolution. Do you believe apes have souls? Do the bacteria from which we all ultimately descend have souls too? How far can you stretch the soul lineage?

My reply : Here's my question - WHY do you need to remember your past life? What will happen if you remember your past life?

This is the same as the question "why do you need God to be revealed to you". My answer is that it would produce certainty, instead of being a hide-and-seek game. If God and the afterlife exist, I can only conclude that they are well-hidden.

But some of the skills you learn from your pervious life does carry forward to this by your sub-consciousness in form of "hidden" talents which surfaces when you do not expect it. Mine for example has to do with fencing (as in sword fighting) and martial arts. There are varies people who has varies skills which displayed at tender ages, so your pervious life experience is not totally a waste, if you seeks to learn from it.

When I was a child I could guess the day of the week that a particular date fell just by looking at the date. I had some calculation method which by now I've forgotten, but I don't attribute this ability to a past-life talent.

.
.
.

Science has found a credible naturalistic explanation for so many things. Why then should I assume that suddenly, in one matter, there should still hold true a supernatural explanation? If I can explain the origin of the species naturally (by evolution), why can't I explain the processes of consciousness naturally (by neurochemical theories)? Seeing how the whole Universe behaves so precisely as if it were totally natural, it seems very unlikely that a supernatural entity like a soul exists. To posit a soul for human survival is very much an assumption of human specialness, and is thus akin to and no more credible than the theory of geocentrism (Earth at centre of the universe).

Jamie_L · 11-08-2002, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
My reply : Unattended byproduct of the brain in unusual states? Very interesting if not lame.

Why does this seem lame? The body often reacts in odd ways to unusual conditions. You can generate muscle responses by external electrical stimulation. Do you think the body evolved specifically to be able to responde to external electrical inputs? Do we believe the brain evolved a specific function to make you feel hungry when you smoke marijuana?

Quote:

And why kind of unusual states (examples) may I ask does the brain find itself in which requires it to come out with illusion to fool itself?

The unusual state is that brain cells are dying - they are not receiving the proper levels of oxygen and nutrients, waste products are not being carried away by the blood stream. It may be receiving an overload of signals from other parts of the body experiencing trauma. Are you claiming this is not an unusual state compared to the normal functioning of the brain?

Furthermore, the brain does not "construct an illusion to fool itself". The brain takes all these unexpected and extraordinary inputs and tries to do something with them. Given that it is not designed to respond to these inputs, it does the best it can, and the result is something unusual.

Jamie

Psycho Economist · 11-08-2002, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
Another thing that I can't figure out is WHY the brain need to fake death to FACE death?

I cannot figure out WHY that the brain needs to come out with such an odd behavoir/illusions to soften itself in accepting death where the ultimate result for this attempt is a shut down of the brain itself. I don't know about you guys, but to me, that is like the brain commiting suicide.

Whenever a brain cell dies, it releases high levels of glutimate, in an effort to kill the other brain cells around it. If only one brain cell dies, its neighbors will only get a small amount of glutimate, and ignore the "die" signal. But if several neighboring cells just died, the brain cell in question will be roll over.

This is why strokes are so bad, even if they don't kill the person, they leave the brain looking like swiss cheese.

Yes, the brain does try to finish itself off when it starts to die (remember that the brain is not monolithic). But if that wasn't the case, you'd linger on for a couple hours gripped in panic (a least until your emotional centers died out) while the last of your brain cells slowly asphyxiated or o.d.'d on endorphines. That's unfortunate today: many people die of shock and trauma through brain suicide when the trauma is otherwise treatable now... but this is a benefit to the 1.5b years of animal life preceeding us.

And quick brain death probably didn't come about as a "comforting" mechanism to the dying but a preservation to those who share the deceased's genes. Think about social and heard animals: if a zebra lingered an hour and a half before it died, other zebras might become lion chow trying to protect its kin. If it's all over after one bite to the neck, those who share your genes can get out of the way of whatever killed you without a second thought.

But an NDE is not the cause of brain death, it's a symptom. The sensations are our interpretation of all the random neurotransmitters the dead cells released as they die.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Psycho Economist ]

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11-07-2002, 09:16 PM	#12
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"1. The brain does not "shut off itself." It simply ceases to function as a result of damage." My reply : In another word, the brain doesn't kill itself off. "2. It is not at all clear that a NDE is in fact something that is actually experienced, rather than something which is simply remembered. If that is the case, then someone who undergoes brain death never encounters NDE elements." My reply : Which has no way proving (whether a person experience brain death experience NDE as well) since brain death IS irreversible. "3. The NDE phenomenon appears to be the product of a variety of random brain processes, and so it is not clear why you think there should be any "reason" for NDE, logical or otherwise." My reply : You are not clear why there should be a reason for it? Because the brain doesn't do something illogical simply because it felt like it. The brain always been the main "CPU" of the body, and EVERYTHING it does is for the survival of the organism that it occupies. I don't see why it has to do something without any reason like NDE. Matter a fact, I prepare to withdraw my statement IF someone shows me an illogical action done by a human brain which doesn't fit logic.

11-07-2002, 09:57 PM	#14
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"every person that is born is new; does that mean a new immortal soul is made every time a person is born? With all those persons born and dead through the ages, can you imagine how crammed the soul-world is?" My reply : This is Christian and Muslims' point of view, which I don't share. I don't see why humans need to be born for a short time only to spend eternity in heaven. Muslims consider that the soul of their departed do not depart fully, instead, it sleeps within the dead body in the ground, which is why they bury their dead. "If this life of mine is just one among many others that preceded it, how is it that only this one is the one I'm fully aware of? What happened to all my "forelives"? Why does memory stretch only to the maximum of years I'm alive now? What happened to the memories of past lives? " My reply : Here's my question - WHY do you need to remember your past life? What will happen if you remember your past life? For one, you will be confuse with varies emotions and attachments if you do remember how you lived in your pervious life and at the same time, you will be ill-fit to live in this life since you will be literal occupying two lives in one time. But some of the skills you learn from your pervious life does carry forward to this by your sub-consciousness in form of "hidden" talents which surfaces when you do not expect it. Mine for example has to do with fencing (as in sword fighting) and martial arts. There are varies people who has varies skills which displayed at tender ages, so your pervious life experience is not totally a waste, if you seeks to learn from it.

11-07-2002, 10:37 PM	#17
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	By Sivakami : "If someone were to experience it "fully" ... as you put it, that would be a death experience and not an NDE " My reply : Yes, which is why I said the difference between a person who had NDE and lives to tell about and one who has NDE but doesn't live is one is dead and another is not. Since death is one time experience (per person), where NDE leads, we will never know till we go all the way. "Again ... strawman. Noone said it was a stress-releiver. There is some evidence for pain relief but thats about it. When the brain faces extreme stress, certain phenomena happen to it, resulting in the person experiencing an NDE. Thats all. The same can be (and has been) simulated with drugs and artificially stimulating certain regions of the brain." My reply : strawman? NDE as stress reliever, pain reliever and death reliever? How many roles does it play? You also forgeting that stress (or pain) ALONE is not the factor which causes NDE. Monks who mediate experience NDE and person who are very relaxed experience NDE (but I have yet to hear hypnosis producing such phenomena). I was introduced to an artificial drug called Ketamine which promote such activity, and this drug will be useful in studying NDE. By tronvillain : "Yes, that is what I said, and the opposite of what you appeared to be asserting earlier." My reply : I simply applying that IF NDE is a product of the brain, it shouldn't lead to dead since that is like the brain commiting suicide. "Well, presumably the issue could be decided given sufficient understanding of the mechanisms behind NDE. Anyway, you made an assertion and I pointed out that it very well might not be the case." My reply : Not very sure what you pointed out, but either way, I agree. This issue has too many questions to be answer till some proper understanding of the mechanism behind it is discovered. "Nonsense. As the product of evolution by natural selection the human brain is not optimized to promote survival in every situation. The simplest explanation of NDE is that they are the unintended byproduct of the human brain being in unusual states. Just look at Blackmoore's explanation of the tunnel effect! It is simply a matter of increasing random noise in the visual cortex, which seems far more likely to be a result of the breakdown of normal brain operation than an effect selected for by the tiny number of ancestral individuals who did not die after achieving such a state. " My reply : Unattended byproduct of the brain in unusual states? Very interesting if not lame. And why kind of unusual states (examples) may I ask does the brain find itself in which requires it to come out with illusion to fool itself? As for Blackmoore's explaination, I could like a link or something since I have very slight memory of reading about it somewhere and then I could make a proper counterexplaination. As for that ancestal whatever ... I don't understand that part.

11-08-2002, 02:30 AM	#18
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	(bold - quoting Seraphim) This is Christian and Muslims' point of view, which I don't share. I don't see why humans need to be born for a short time only to spend eternity in heaven. I wasn't talking about that. The problem of the logistics of souls stays the same even if you assume reincarnation, for each person born is a new personality. If you say souls transmigrate between bodies, then who did they transmigrate from when the human population was lower? And does it follow that an ape's soul transmigrated into a body of a human? Again, I'm hinting that the thesis of human soul is made quite incredible by the fact of evolution. Do you believe apes have souls? Do the bacteria from which we all ultimately descend have souls too? How far can you stretch the soul lineage? My reply : Here's my question - WHY do you need to remember your past life? What will happen if you remember your past life? This is the same as the question "why do you need God to be revealed to you". My answer is that it would produce certainty, instead of being a hide-and-seek game. If God and the afterlife exist, I can only conclude that they are well-hidden. But some of the skills you learn from your pervious life does carry forward to this by your sub-consciousness in form of "hidden" talents which surfaces when you do not expect it. Mine for example has to do with fencing (as in sword fighting) and martial arts. There are varies people who has varies skills which displayed at tender ages, so your pervious life experience is not totally a waste, if you seeks to learn from it. When I was a child I could guess the day of the week that a particular date fell just by looking at the date. I had some calculation method which by now I've forgotten, but I don't attribute this ability to a past-life talent. . . . Science has found a credible naturalistic explanation for so many things. Why then should I assume that suddenly, in one matter, there should still hold true a supernatural explanation? If I can explain the origin of the species naturally (by evolution), why can't I explain the processes of consciousness naturally (by neurochemical theories)? Seeing how the whole Universe behaves so precisely as if it were totally natural, it seems very unlikely that a supernatural entity like a soul exists. To posit a soul for human survival is very much an assumption of human specialness, and is thus akin to and no more credible than the theory of geocentrism (Earth at centre of the universe).

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