Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 05-13-2003, 06:32 PM

Has this been discussed? The search is not functioning so I don't know.

If this is effective, why don't we have one in every city?

Garbage to oil

Quote:

But first things first. Today, here at the plant at Philadelphia's Naval Business Center, the experimental feedstock is turkey processing-plant waste: feathers, bones, skin, blood, fat, guts. A forklift dumps 1,400 pounds of the nasty stuff into the machine's first stage, a 350-horsepower grinder that masticates it into gray brown slurry. From there it flows into a series of tanks and pipes, which hum and hiss as they heat, digest, and break down the mixture. Two hours later, a white-jacketed technician turns a spigot. Out pours a honey-colored fluid, steaming a bit in the cold warehouse as it fills a glass beaker.
It really is a lovely oil.
"The longest carbon chains are C-18 or so," says Appel, admiring the liquid. "That's a very light oil. It is essentially the same as a mix of half fuel oil, half gasoline."

echidna · 05-13-2003, 07:46 PM

I'm not sure. This was the thread from April ...

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=51594

The Lone Ranger · 05-13-2003, 07:47 PM

It was discussed here, though it has been awhile since any new posts.

Cheers,

Michael

Viti · 05-13-2003, 07:53 PM

Thanks guys

Coragyps · 05-13-2003, 08:20 PM

I haven't read the other thread yet, but crude oil is about $25 a barrel or $0.60 a gallon. A pretty tough feedstock to compete with.

echidna · 05-13-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

And it will be profitable, promises Appel. "We've done so much testing in Philadelphia, we already know the costs," he says. "This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

This indicates that it�s still not economical at present, but further I suspect that even long-term it may come down to cost-benefit & unfortunately I�m suspicious of Appel. I would strongly suspect here that his barrel costs are not inclusive of the R&D, or even the capital plant investment. I may be wrong, but to me a self-described entrepreneur would be more likely to quote only operating costs.

As such, he may be saying that in 3 � 5 years it may approach cost effectiveness to current production methods possibly yet without the capital costs.

It�s really hard to know without understanding what he�s based these costs on. For a process which is supposedly energy neutral or even positive, what makes up the $15 per barrel cost ? This seems quite high given the raw material is essentially free and to me something smells funny although it might just be the turkey guts. I may be wrong about the capital costs not being factored in, however venture capital entrepreneurs in my experience are more prone to paint the best picture they possibly can, often at the expense of full economic transparency.

Unfortunately it has all the markings of a sales pitch with little of the fine print.

The Philadelphia plant offers more details �

Quote:

The $20 million facility, scheduled to go online any day, is expected to digest more than 200 tons of turkey-processing waste every 24 hours.

Just on some very very loose numbers (please, anyone correct me if I�ve goofed badly) :

200 tons per day = approx 300,000 litres of raw material per day
@ 365 days / year = 10^8 litres per annum
@ 150 litres per barrel = 730,000 barrels per annum
@ 20% conversion efficiency to oil = 146,000 barrels per annum
@ $15 per barrel = $2.2 million per annum

Now, given that this is still independent of operating costs, the capital alone, has a 10 year payback time. Not real good I�m afraid. Unless I�ve badly goofed those numbers, it doesn�t look promising as a serious contender in the near future.

echidna · 05-13-2003, 08:32 PM

Even if I use Coragyps's $25 per barrel cost, the payback still runs at more than 5 years and still doesn't account for processing costs which Appel hints may be high.

SULPHUR · 05-14-2003, 07:28 AM

producing a product to power cars from used cooking oil has been around for about ten years. the only problem is that the exhaust fumes smell like fish and chips.

05-14-2003, 07:28 AM	#8
SULPHUR Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: hobart,tasmania Posts: 551	cooking oil producing a product to power cars from used cooking oil has been around for about ten years. the only problem is that the exhaust fumes smell like fish and chips.

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05-13-2003, 07:46 PM	#2
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	I'm not sure. This was the thread from April ... http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=51594

05-13-2003, 07:47 PM	#3
The Lone Ranger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Eastern U.S. Posts: 1,230	It was discussed here, though it has been awhile since any new posts. Cheers, Michael

05-13-2003, 07:53 PM	#4
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Thanks guys

05-13-2003, 08:20 PM	#5
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	I haven't read the other thread yet, but crude oil is about $25 a barrel or $0.60 a gallon. A pretty tough feedstock to compete with.

05-13-2003, 08:32 PM	#7
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Even if I use Coragyps's $25 per barrel cost, the payback still runs at more than 5 years and still doesn't account for processing costs which Appel hints may be high.

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