Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-27-2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
You misunderstood my question. Let me be more precise. Is there any evidence obtained from that location that lacked a legitimate use for an antiquities collector?

Go read the thread. Engraving tools are not part of the usual tools of antiquities collectors.

Quote:

You said many believe that Irenaeus invented the historical Jesus myth. I asked if you really meant Irenaeus, since he did not write until the end of the second century. Most JMers I know lay the blame at Igantius' feet. He wrote at the beginning of the first century.

Did you know what you were talking about? I am sure you have more exposure to fringe extreme theories than I do, so I wanted to make sure.

I am a Jesus-agnostic because I don't see how you can hold any position when the evidence is so fraught with forgery and omission.

I think you meant to say that Ignatius wrote at the beginning of the 2nd century (the years starting with 100), but that seems unprovable. Some scholars think his letters might have been written closer to 160 (whether he wrote them or not is unclear.)

There may be JM'ers who think Ignatius invented the Historical Jesus, but I have seen the opinion expressed that Irenaeus is to blame.

I think it would be hard or impossible to be sure, since some of the "heretics" of that era spoke of an earthly Jesus while believing in a supernatural Jesus.

Layman · 03-27-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I think you meant to say that Ignatius wrote at the beginning of the 2nd century (the years starting with 100), but that seems unprovable. Some scholars think his letters might have been written closer to 160 (whether he wrote them or not is unclear.)

You are right. My apologies. Ignatius wrote at the beginning of the second century. Irenaeus at the end of the second century.

Who have you read that claims Igantius wrote in 160?

Ted Hoffman · 03-27-2003, 09:51 PM

Quote:

As to Ignatius, who knows what he actually wrote about, if anyting?

Didnt someone talk about Ignatius' seven letters a short while ago?

Ellegard 100 years before christ, believes, Ignatius invented HJ.

Toto · 03-27-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
Who have you read that claims Igantius wrote in 160?

Doherty, in the link above, says that the Dutch Radicals date the letters composed under Ignatius' name to closer to 160.

Hermand Detering, in 1 Clement and the Ignatiana in Dutch Radical Criticism notes:

Quote:

Marcion seems to be one of the false teachers that Ignatius fought against[xxxv]. Some places obviously show foreknowledge of Valentinian Gnosticism[xxxvi]. Not least, the idea of the monarchical episcopate which is emphatically promoted in the letters, presupposes a later time of origin, probably around 175 (so VAN LOON[xxxvii]) or 160 (so VAN DEN BERGH VAN EYSINGA[xxxviii]). The collection probably developed in Rome.

Vorkosigan · 03-28-2003, 05:09 AM

You misunderstood my question. Let me be more precise. Is there any evidence obtained from that location that lacked a legitimate use for an antiquities collector?

Yes. Dental equipment. Engraving equipment. Soil samples from various places in Israel.

It's all over but the shouting, Layman. You needn't expend further energy defending this object to the death.

Vorkosigan

Layman · 03-28-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Doherty, in the link above, says that the Dutch Radicals date the letters composed under Ignatius' name to closer to 160.

Hermand Detering, in 1 Clement and the Ignatiana in Dutch Radical Criticism notes:

Ah yes, your "Dutch radicals" again.

Layman · 03-28-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
Didnt someone talk about Ignatius' seven letters a short while ago?

Ellegard 100 years before christ, believes, Ignatius invented HJ.

Right. I'm looking for JMers who believe Irenaeus invented the HJ. That was what Toto said. I just hadn't heard that before.

Toto · 03-28-2003, 11:58 AM

It's speculation on the JesusMysteries list, which I skim through. I don't think there is a published scholar who defends the idea. I have other concerns now but if I come accross more information I will let you know.

Vinnie · 03-28-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Ah yes, your "Dutch radicals" again.

dEM Dutch Radicalz are sum rAD fellas!

Vinnie

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03-28-2003, 05:09 AM	#125
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	You misunderstood my question. Let me be more precise. Is there any evidence obtained from that location that lacked a legitimate use for an antiquities collector? Yes. Dental equipment. Engraving equipment. Soil samples from various places in Israel. It's all over but the shouting, Layman. You needn't expend further energy defending this object to the death. Vorkosigan

03-28-2003, 11:58 AM	#128
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It's speculation on the JesusMysteries list, which I skim through. I don't think there is a published scholar who defends the idea. I have other concerns now but if I come accross more information I will let you know.

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