gabriel

Hi, I'm from Chile, and a recently awaken atheist.
As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians.

They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was:

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.

I hope I made myself clear. English is not my language.

Bloop

If they admittedly do not grasp God, how the hell do they form so many conclusions about him?

gabriel

I understand your point.
This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask".
Am I right?

diana

Welcome to II.

The argument was:Hm. Yes. How do you argue with a person who argues for something they admittedly don't understand?

The analogy of the believer to a small child is a common one. Even Jesus said that those who come to him should make themselves as children. The implication is, of course, that they should be credulous. A less polite term would be "gullible."

However, children know, at least, that their parents exist. They know who they're obeying, and know exactly what will happen if they don't. I can't say the same for believers.

You might level the playing field a bit by asking them how much sense belief in Allah makes to them. Or Krishna. Or...pick a diety, any diety--other than theirs. Why do they reject that deity? Because it's false, they'll tell you. How do they know? Because the stories associated with it sound ridiculous? Hm. Who are they to try to understand Krishna?

The criteria that they tell you you must accept with their god is the same criteria by which they uniformly reject all the rest.

Alternately, I've tried explaining to them that it doesn't make sense to me that a god would create me with a brain then require me not to use it (or, if you wish to be poetic about it, "come to Jesus with the faith of a child"). That one never makes a dent, for some reason.

d

anime

If they admittedly do not grasp God, how the hell do they form so many conclusions about him?

Kind of like a Bible critic who forms conclusions about a book they don't understand.

Zadok001

anime:

Bad analogy. The argument presented for God implies one CANNOT understand him. The Bible can be understood, even by a critic. Some critics may NOT understand, but I'd wager a vast majority of Christians don't fully understand it either.

Your metaphor fails.

bgponder

Dear gabriel,

Bienvenidos a Infidels.

I am assuming you refer to the Biblical God. An argument you may use to counter this is, if we cannot fully understand God, then why did God "give" us the Bible?

Why not simply tell us "children" what we need to know in a way that is clear to all? Surely if God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, He could do that, and would want to do that.

Probabalmente usted tiene razon, that they will say this is a Mystery of God; but often the mystery is that they have no real reason why the Bible does not make clear what God is all about, other than to reinforce the myths of the ancient Jews, and their offshoots--Christians.

Usually from there the argument will go in the direction of whether if the Bible were clear, we could have free will. But that is another matter which is taken up in many other places in this forum.

Hasta Luego, BarryG

anime

zadok001,

I said "a" Bible critic, not all Bible critics.

I think that most do not understand what they are criticizing.

And your right, most Christians don't understand it either.

Psycho Economist

This answers the question of how a deity could be right in taking actions we see as unjust, but it is not an affirmative argument for the existence of that deity. I think you would be well served by looking at empirical and logical arguments... and concentrating on the problem of whether these deities exist in the first place in future arguments. If you have reached the point of the point of talking about whether the Christian god is good or bad, just or unjust, you have already lost too much ground in that discussion.

Asha'man

Welcome gabriel!

When you deal with a child, you must do so on a level that the child can understand. Many adult concepts are simply beyond the experience of a child, so something simpler must be provided.

However, I am no longer a child, and am fully capable of understanding adult concepts. To deal with me fairly, you must at least attempt to present the concepts to me as an adult, not as a child. Christianity fails at this, it makes no attempt to explain things to me at my level.