Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 03-27-2003, 01:13 PM

Nah, that's jeebus job: separating the chaff from the seed.

Actually, Jesus said in at least one place that it (judgment) wasn't his job; judgment is God's (the Father's).

John 12:44-49: Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

VivaHedone · 03-27-2003, 01:39 PM

This must pose a problem for Christians - if I truly believe that god does not exist, then it is not my fault. How could a good god send me to hell for it, then? Whose fault is it that I do not belive?

Mageth · 03-27-2003, 01:47 PM

Note that I'm arguing the xian position here (I don't believe any of this myself):

This must pose a problem for Christians - if I truly believe that god does not exist, then it is not my fault.

And at least some xians would point out to you that it is your fault, that there's enough evidence to believe, and point out the scriptures to support their position.

How could a good god send me to hell for it, then?

And some xians would point out that god is a just god, and thus can't let "sin" go unpunished. That's his nature, and he can't violate his nature.

Whose fault is it that I do not belive?

From the bible, I've seen all three of these positions, and combinations thereof, argued:
Why yours, of course. (you choose not to believe, and choose to go to hell).
Why, Satan's, of course. (Satan deceives us into not believing)
Why, God's, of course. (God chooses those he shows mercy to; "predestination"; some of us are damned from the get-go and there's nothing we can do about it).

Paine · 03-27-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
n

I think that's what Tabula_rasa was getting at; it's not the job of any Xian to judge a person's heart, that's god's job; so in reality no Xian should judge (as in condemn) others. A lesson seldom followed, and a position xians will often argue against, asserting god gives them permission, even requires them, to judge others in some situations; there's actually some scriptures to back that up.

So a Xian(?) cant judge if a person is evil or not. Only god has that abilitie. Is that what your saying?

Mageth · 03-28-2003, 02:05 PM

So a Xian(?) cant judge if a person is evil or not. Only god has that abilitie. Is that what your saying?

I'd say the bible can be used to support either position.

The bible supports that xians can judge by actions whether one among them is truly part of the "flock."

The bible also supports that xians can't judge the heart - only god can - and thus shouldn't judge anyone.

meritocrat · 03-29-2003, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paine
I hear the term "Evil" thrown around alot lately by our government. My question is, as an atiest, who chooses not to beleive in god. Would i be considered evil by relgiuous standards?

Religious people can even be 'evil'.

Personally I think that one's actions (not their beliefs) should be the criteria used to ascertain their 'morality'.

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03-27-2003, 01:13 PM	#21
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Nah, that's jeebus job: separating the chaff from the seed. Actually, Jesus said in at least one place that it (judgment) wasn't his job; judgment is God's (the Father's). John 12:44-49: Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak

03-27-2003, 01:39 PM	#22
VivaHedone Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 146	This must pose a problem for Christians - if I truly believe that god does not exist, then it is not my fault. How could a good god send me to hell for it, then? Whose fault is it that I do not belive?

03-27-2003, 01:47 PM	#23
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Note that I'm arguing the xian position here (I don't believe any of this myself): This must pose a problem for Christians - if I truly believe that god does not exist, then it is not my fault. And at least some xians would point out to you that it is your fault, that there's enough evidence to believe, and point out the scriptures to support their position. How could a good god send me to hell for it, then? And some xians would point out that god is a just god, and thus can't let "sin" go unpunished. That's his nature, and he can't violate his nature. Whose fault is it that I do not belive? From the bible, I've seen all three of these positions, and combinations thereof, argued: Why yours, of course. (you choose not to believe, and choose to go to hell). Why, Satan's, of course. (Satan deceives us into not believing) Why, God's, of course. (God chooses those he shows mercy to; "predestination"; some of us are damned from the get-go and there's nothing we can do about it).

03-28-2003, 02:05 PM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So a Xian(?) cant judge if a person is evil or not. Only god has that abilitie. Is that what your saying? I'd say the bible can be used to support either position. The bible supports that xians can judge by actions whether one among them is truly part of the "flock." The bible also supports that xians can't judge the heart - only god can - and thus shouldn't judge anyone.

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