In another thread, Haran said this:
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BTW, I think the "subjectivity" of Atheistic morals can already be seen in the name-calling and disagreement on exactly what these morals may be. Indeed, Michael goes so far as to say: "There are no "atheist morals.""
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And Christians don’t sometimes call people names? Are you claiming religious people are more moral than atheists?
You are taking Michael’s quote out of context. He doesn’t mean that atheists aren’t moral, only there is no one set of morality shared by atheists, just like there isn’t one set of morals agreed upon by theists (or even Christians for that matter!). Just for the record, Atheists don't agree on who is the best baseball team in America or who has the best singing voice.
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This seems somewhat subjective and dependent on society to me.
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There are many atheists who argue that there is an objective morality and some of them, such as objectivists, agree on large portions of what is and isn’t moral. Either way, Christians themselves often don’t agree on what is and isn’t moral, so I fail to see your point here.
And just for clarification, many, probably most, forms of subjective morality don’t depend on society to dictate what is right or wrong. However, it is rather clear that the context of where the person lives will often shape their value system.
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Without belief in a final accounting of our actions after death, then nothing is ultimately "wrong".
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So you are arguing that because we aren’t afraid of being held responsible for our actions to God, we have no reason to “ultimately” act one way over another? I’m not seeing the connection here. I’m ultimately accountable for my actions to myself – please explain how being held accountable to God somehow makes morality “objective.”
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Anything that improves our life is "ok", even if it happens to be at the expense of others. In order to be happy, I may have to conform somewhat to the values in my society (as mentioned by BobK). Therefore, if my society says slavery is bad, then I shouldn't own slaves. If my society says slavery is fine and I can make money to improve and enjoy my life (think ~150-200 years ago), then I will own all the slaves necessary to make myself happy. If it is ok by society and ok by my own arbitrary "morals" then why not?
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What if we value the relationships of certain “others,” etc? I’m really not following what you are saying here. Why should I accept society as the ultimate arbiter of values? Why do you think that atheists hold the rule that anything that improves our lives is okay, especially given that “improving our lives” is a rather ambiguous goal or purpose?
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Can an atheist really decry Christianity/religion (which is more than likely the ultimate issue here) when he/she realizes that there is no ultimate accounting for his/her earthly deeds, making anything perfectly allowable?
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Yes I can – I certainly value other human beings and could list out quite a few reasons why I hold that slavery is wrong. As I stated earlier, I am always accountable to myself. Is the only reason you don’t rape, murder, etc. people because God says no? The only “valid” morality in your mind is when there is a God to wave his finger at you?
02-02-2002, 09:04 PM
"The Atheist's Morality."
