Freethought & Rationalism Archive

big d · 04-09-2002, 04:25 AM

Here is the last part of the sermon:

Proof #3 – Study the accuracy of the Bible.
Accurate history -Luke 1:1-4
Accurate eyewitnesses – 2 Peter 1:16-18
Accurate theology – Deut 13:1-4
Accurate predictions Deut 18:21-22
(At this point he was trying to prove the Koran and Book of Mormon had false predictions but the Bible was 100% accurate, therefore IT was the word of God and not the other two. I wonder why he didn’t mention Jesus’ and Paul’s failed prophecies of Jesus’ immediate return.)

Proof #4 – Study the Scientific evidence supporting the Bible

Science offers more evidence to the authenticity of the Bible than it raises questions.
Three recent scientific discoveries:
1. Evidence of the Flood –all mountain ranges in the world have marine fossils and it is clear there was a world-wide flood, most geologists today agree.
2. Discovery of the city of Jericho. Discovered recently, the walls have fallen straight down, not in the same pattern as a siege.
3. NASA’s discovery of the Sabbath Day – spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work.
"Each decade there are more scientific discoveries that continue to authenticate the Bible."
(Nest week he is really diving into the science area – should be fun)

Proof #5 – Study the lives changed by the Bible!

(I can say the same for anyone adopting a new belief system –JW’s Hindus, New Agers, 12-steppers, Body for Lifers, etc. Having many pastor friends, almost making it through seminary, and knowing many Christians, I am amazed that this "proof" is even offered. What goes on behind the scenes at churches with both staff and congregations argues against this point. We used to kid around in seminary that churches were the only place where we shoot our own wounded!)

His Summary –Build your life on the foundation of the Bible if you want to survive the storms of life!
(
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> )

Grumpy · 04-09-2002, 03:24 PM

Quote:

...all mountain ranges in the world have marine fossils and it is clear there was a world-wide flood, most geologists today agree.

This is why I do not go to churches. Because I would have unquestionably made a spectacle of myself upon hearing this ludicrous utterance. Need I explain the half-dozen ways in which it is ludicrous? Very well, moving on...

Quote:

3. NASA's discovery of the Sabbath Day; spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work.

I'm not quite sure what this is even about -- though it sounds like the tale of <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/religion/lostday.htm" target="_blank">NASA's missing day</a>. So, not only is the preacher apparently referencing a well-known hoax, he's got it all wrong. Unless he's referring to some hoax I've never heard of -- though I can't imagine what it would be. (It may be conflated with the legend of NASA's <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm" target="_blank">astronaut pen</a>, though the canonical figure in that legend is $1.5 Million.)

I wonder if this preacher is deliberately and maliciously lying to the congregation, or if he's just a bleeding idiot.

Cronus Malor · 04-09-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
<strong>I wonder if this preacher is deliberately and maliciously lying to the congregation, or if he's just a bleeding idiot.</strong>

A little from column A, a little from column B.

brian · 04-09-2002, 10:29 PM

The reliablity of scripture can be argued. But mostly, I think you have to believe in a "spiritual relm" of sorts to beable to believe in the "spiritual" reliability of scripture. It's kind of ironic trying to argue the spiritual quality of a book on an athiestic message board.

Mike Rosoft · 04-12-2002, 01:41 AM

I see. This looks like McDowell's argument for the uniqueness of the Bible.

The arguments do not hold. Instead of repeating of what others have said, I'll link to Curt van den Heuvel's <a href="http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/unique.shtml" target="_blank">response</a>.

Quote:

3B. The Conclusion is Obvious

And indeed it is. We find no compelling reason to believe that the Bible is unique, in the sense of a one-of-a-kind, God-breathed Book. The feats here listed by McDowell are easily matched by a number of other works of religious significance. In many cases, we find that the points that McDowell raises in defense of the Bible's uniqueness

a) are actually points in favor of the Bible being an outstanding member of a class of documents. The Bible's dissemination and translation are two such areas.
b) have no bearing on the issue of uniqueness, such as the places and moods in which the Bible was written.
c) are actually features of the Bible's believers, not the text itself. Such points would be survival under persecution and criticism.
d) are simply untrue, such as the statement that the Bible is a harmonious whole, or that it is unique in the type of history it portrays, or that it contains fulfilled prophecy.
e) are superseded by other works, such as the 1600 year span for the Bible, compared to the 2000 year span of the Hindu Scriptures.

Mike Rosoft

lpetrich · 04-12-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Study the accuracy of the Bible. (as indicated by Bible quotes...)

Seems rather circular. Also, some of the OT-quote "prophecies" in the NT, like the famous virgin-birth one, are quotes out of context.

As to quoting the Bible out of context, I wonder if anyone has tried to demonstrate evolution by natural selection with Bible quotes. With any troublesome context carefully snipped away, of course.

Quote:

Study the Scientific evidence supporting the Bible

Science offers more evidence to the authenticity of the Bible than it raises questions.
Three recent scientific discoveries:

This should be fun.

Quote:

1. Evidence of the Flood: all mountain ranges in the world have marine fossils and it is clear there was a world-wide flood, most geologists today agree.

That is total hooey. These marine fossils were deposited on long-ago continental shelves, along with a lot of sediment. This got squeezed and heated by the weight of other sediment on top, forming rocks. But continents drift, and they sometimes collide with each other. This pushes up those rocks, fossils and all, making mountains.

Quote:

2. Discovery of the city of Jericho. Discovered recently, the walls have fallen straight down, not in the same pattern as a siege.

About Jericho, it could have been an earthquake -- which shakes the ground without creating a big and continuous horizontal force. Loose and loosened objects thus drop straight down, as is evident in pictures of earthquake damage.

Also, the writers of the Bible could have noticed Jericho's walls, and then invented the story of Joshua and his trumpeters to explain it.

Quote:

3. NASA's discovery of the Sabbath Day: spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work.

The most they might have found is that their astronauts need a break every now and then.

spin · 04-12-2002, 08:56 PM

--------------------
2. Discovery of the city of Jericho. Discovered recently, the walls have fallen straight down, not in the same pattern as a siege.
--------------------

This is utter crap. There is no such recent discovery. I have the two Jericho reports in front of me at the moment. Two facts: the Late Bronze Age is not represented at Jericho. There are no signs of the Middle Bronze walls having fallen straight down. Who invented this silliness?

If anyone can get their hands on them the reports are called "Quaderni di Gerico" 1(1998) and 2(2000), from the University of Rome (La Sapienza). There are pictures of the Middle Bronze walls in the first volume p.108-111.

As there was a glacis outside the walls of the Middle Bronze city, can anyone in their right minds imagine the walls falling straight down???

Mindless imbecility. Duh.

l-bow · 04-14-2002, 03:26 AM

spin,

I think he's referring to Bryant Wood's work at Jericho. He published an article in Biblical Archaeological Review back in 1990 (I think).

Radcliffe Emerson · 04-17-2002, 07:51 AM

Taking 2 and half years to finally read the bible all the way through, from Genesis through Revelation, is precisely what made me agnostic.

Mageth · 04-17-2002, 08:05 AM

3. NASA's discovery of the Sabbath Day: spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work.

Hmm...I worked at NASA in suppport of a few missions. News: they don't give shuttle astronauts scheduled "days of rest." If they're up there for 8, 9 or more days, they have more or less a full schedule every day. What often happens on long missions is closer to mutiny; the crew declares a day of "rest" (really minimal work) or otherwise surreptiously arranges to take some time off.

I reckon on the space station they have some days of low activity to give the 'nauts a break, but with all that's going on there's always some things that must be done every day.

04-09-2002, 04:25 AM	#1
big d Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 41	The Bible is Reliable Part 2 Here is the last part of the sermon: Proof #3 – Study the accuracy of the Bible. Accurate history -Luke 1:1-4 Accurate eyewitnesses – 2 Peter 1:16-18 Accurate theology – Deut 13:1-4 Accurate predictions Deut 18:21-22 (At this point he was trying to prove the Koran and Book of Mormon had false predictions but the Bible was 100% accurate, therefore IT was the word of God and not the other two. I wonder why he didn’t mention Jesus’ and Paul’s failed prophecies of Jesus’ immediate return.) Proof #4 – Study the Scientific evidence supporting the Bible Science offers more evidence to the authenticity of the Bible than it raises questions. Three recent scientific discoveries: 1. Evidence of the Flood –all mountain ranges in the world have marine fossils and it is clear there was a world-wide flood, most geologists today agree. 2. Discovery of the city of Jericho. Discovered recently, the walls have fallen straight down, not in the same pattern as a siege. 3. NASA’s discovery of the Sabbath Day – spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work. "Each decade there are more scientific discoveries that continue to authenticate the Bible." (Nest week he is really diving into the science area – should be fun) Proof #5 – Study the lives changed by the Bible! (I can say the same for anyone adopting a new belief system –JW’s Hindus, New Agers, 12-steppers, Body for Lifers, etc. Having many pastor friends, almost making it through seminary, and knowing many Christians, I am amazed that this "proof" is even offered. What goes on behind the scenes at churches with both staff and congregations argues against this point. We used to kid around in seminary that churches were the only place where we shoot our own wounded!) His Summary –Build your life on the foundation of the Bible if you want to survive the storms of life! ( <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> )

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04-09-2002, 10:29 PM	#4
brian New Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: california Posts: 4	The reliablity of scripture can be argued. But mostly, I think you have to believe in a "spiritual relm" of sorts to beable to believe in the "spiritual" reliability of scripture. It's kind of ironic trying to argue the spiritual quality of a book on an athiestic message board.

04-12-2002, 08:56 PM	#7
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	-------------------- 2. Discovery of the city of Jericho. Discovered recently, the walls have fallen straight down, not in the same pattern as a siege. -------------------- This is utter crap. There is no such recent discovery. I have the two Jericho reports in front of me at the moment. Two facts: the Late Bronze Age is not represented at Jericho. There are no signs of the Middle Bronze walls having fallen straight down. Who invented this silliness? If anyone can get their hands on them the reports are called "Quaderni di Gerico" 1(1998) and 2(2000), from the University of Rome (La Sapienza). There are pictures of the Middle Bronze walls in the first volume p.108-111. As there was a glacis outside the walls of the Middle Bronze city, can anyone in their right minds imagine the walls falling straight down??? Mindless imbecility. Duh.

04-14-2002, 03:26 AM	#8
l-bow Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 215	spin, I think he's referring to Bryant Wood's work at Jericho. He published an article in Biblical Archaeological Review back in 1990 (I think).

04-17-2002, 07:51 AM	#9
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Taking 2 and half years to finally read the bible all the way through, from Genesis through Revelation, is precisely what made me agnostic.

04-17-2002, 08:05 AM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	3. NASA's discovery of the Sabbath Day: spent 40 million dollars to find out man needs a day of rest after 6 days of work. Hmm...I worked at NASA in suppport of a few missions. News: they don't give shuttle astronauts scheduled "days of rest." If they're up there for 8, 9 or more days, they have more or less a full schedule every day. What often happens on long missions is closer to mutiny; the crew declares a day of "rest" (really minimal work) or otherwise surreptiously arranges to take some time off. I reckon on the space station they have some days of low activity to give the 'nauts a break, but with all that's going on there's always some things that must be done every day.

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