Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Scorpion · 08-02-2002, 11:27 AM

Ok,

I'll put this in another way and try to elaborate it a little further:

What does it mean that my soul is eternal? Has it always existed, i.e. was it created along with everything else in the Beginning and has been around for 6006 years? If this is *not* the case and my soul is as old as I am, how does come to being? Does God give it to me (meaning God interferes with the world every time a new child is born - or developed to a certain embryonic state) or is just born out of... what?

Again, the easy way out of this discussion is to point out that I'm using badly defined and probably non-referential concepts (i.e. God and soul), but I'll try to be a good sport and take their existence for granted

-S-

[ August 03, 2002: Message totally reformulated by: Scorpion ]

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Scorpion ]</p>

The Other Michael · 08-04-2002, 01:08 PM

Hi Scorpion,

Can you make this relate more to morals as in the subject line you used for your post? So far this sounds more like a miscellaneous religious topic.

But if you can bring it around to moral foundations & principles we'll leave it here instead of moving it to MRD.

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator, 2rd class (note recent promotion)

Miss Scarlett · 08-04-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator, 2rd class (note recent promotion)

Does this now imply that you require more postage?

Scorpion · 08-05-2002, 10:12 AM

Yes, my question fell a bit short of the title. I was wondering about the usual claim that without believing in the reward or punishment we receive in afterlife there is no solid basis for moral action in this life. Originally I had this platonic idea about our souls coming "down" to real world - now, I don't remember having been in heaven before my birth, so why should I believe that it is *I* in any important sense that remains after the corpse begins to rot (even if I did admit the existence of soul)? ...But then I realized that I don't even know if the Christian concept of soul is the same as Plato's in this respect...

-S-

99Percent · 08-05-2002, 09:19 PM

hmm, maybe you should post your questions in a Christian or some other theistic forum. Your question seem to imply several premises most atheists reject outright such as souls, heaven and what not.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

LaDorissima · 08-06-2002, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpion:
<strong>I was wondering about the usual claim that without believing in the reward or punishment we receive in afterlife there is no solid basis for moral action in this life
-S-</strong>

How about the reward or punishment we receive in this life?

LaD

Scorpion · 08-06-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

How about the reward or punishment we receive in this life?

Exactly... Isn't it funny that afterlife reward/punishment is portrayed as necessary for any *real* morality, but the same stuff down here isn't arguably even sufficient for it?

...or is this line of argument a vaguely human-shaped heap of straws? I can think of so many ways to whack it that I'm beginning to suspect it is...

-S-

echidna · 08-06-2002, 04:41 PM

Scorpion, maybe let�s take a secular spin on your question. As 99 pointed out, you appear to have mistaken this as a forum for people who believe in souls & afterlives.

What are the moral consequences that there is no such thing as a soul ?
What are the moral consequences that there is no heaven and hell ?
What are the moral consequences that there is no afterlife ?
What are the moral consequences that there is no god controlling our actions ?

It means that we have complete responsibility for our actions.

It means that when we perform an act of compassion, we do it because we feel it�s the right thing to do, not because we cower in the fear of punishment feeling threatened by a tyrannical owner like some pet dog.

It means that if we are cruel, there will be no compassionate being to protect or compensate the other person from our cruelty. Our cruelty is absolute and utterly real.

It means that this life is all we get. It means that we have the choice to enjoy it, live it to the fullest.

And it also means that we have every freedom to make some really bad decisions.

echidna · 08-06-2002, 04:44 PM

Personally I think it�s quite possible to live morally either with or without such beliefs. I mean seriously, no one knows about such things. Maybe yes, maybe no. Although at the same time, it does seem very odd that there is NO evidence whatsoever for their existence.

In the end, I�d suggest that it�s quite possible to live well, without necessarily belief in their existence.

Scorpion · 08-06-2002, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Echinda:
Scorpion, maybe let�s take a secular spin on your question. As 99 pointed out, you appear to have mistaken this as a forum for people who believe in souls & afterlives.

No, I certainly haven't

. The point of me posing the question like this is that whenever I am confronted with these kind of questions myself my first question is not "is it true?" but "does it make any difference if it is true?". Among other things it helps me determine if the question is even meaningful... also, I find the refutation of an idea stronger if I can do it without needing to argue about the existence of the used concepts.

I do admit though that I might be better off having an answer to the question about the actual nature of the Christian soul in some other forum

-S-

08-02-2002, 11:27 AM	#1
Scorpion Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 915	Soul, self and implications on morals Ok, I'll put this in another way and try to elaborate it a little further: What does it mean that my soul is eternal? Has it always existed, i.e. was it created along with everything else in the Beginning and has been around for 6006 years? If this is not the case and my soul is as old as I am, how does come to being? Does God give it to me (meaning God interferes with the world every time a new child is born - or developed to a certain embryonic state) or is just born out of... what? Again, the easy way out of this discussion is to point out that I'm using badly defined and probably non-referential concepts (i.e. God and soul), but I'll try to be a good sport and take their existence for granted -S- [ August 03, 2002: Message totally reformulated by: Scorpion ] [ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Scorpion ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-04-2002, 01:08 PM	#2
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Scorpion, Can you make this relate more to morals as in the subject line you used for your post? So far this sounds more like a miscellaneous religious topic. But if you can bring it around to moral foundations & principles we'll leave it here instead of moving it to MRD. cheers, Michael MF&P Moderator, 2rd class (note recent promotion)

08-05-2002, 10:12 AM	#4
Scorpion Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 915	Yes, my question fell a bit short of the title. I was wondering about the usual claim that without believing in the reward or punishment we receive in afterlife there is no solid basis for moral action in this life. Originally I had this platonic idea about our souls coming "down" to real world - now, I don't remember having been in heaven before my birth, so why should I believe that it is I in any important sense that remains after the corpse begins to rot (even if I did admit the existence of soul)? ...But then I realized that I don't even know if the Christian concept of soul is the same as Plato's in this respect... -S-

08-05-2002, 09:19 PM	#5
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	hmm, maybe you should post your questions in a Christian or some other theistic forum. Your question seem to imply several premises most atheists reject outright such as souls, heaven and what not. [ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

08-06-2002, 04:41 PM	#8
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Scorpion, maybe let�s take a secular spin on your question. As 99 pointed out, you appear to have mistaken this as a forum for people who believe in souls & afterlives. What are the moral consequences that there is no such thing as a soul ? What are the moral consequences that there is no heaven and hell ? What are the moral consequences that there is no afterlife ? What are the moral consequences that there is no god controlling our actions ? It means that we have complete responsibility for our actions. It means that when we perform an act of compassion, we do it because we feel it�s the right thing to do, not because we cower in the fear of punishment feeling threatened by a tyrannical owner like some pet dog. It means that if we are cruel, there will be no compassionate being to protect or compensate the other person from our cruelty. Our cruelty is absolute and utterly real. It means that this life is all we get. It means that we have the choice to enjoy it, live it to the fullest. And it also means that we have every freedom to make some really bad decisions.

08-06-2002, 04:44 PM	#9
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Personally I think it�s quite possible to live morally either with or without such beliefs. I mean seriously, no one knows about such things. Maybe yes, maybe no. Although at the same time, it does seem very odd that there is NO evidence whatsoever for their existence. In the end, I�d suggest that it�s quite possible to live well, without necessarily belief in their existence.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.