Viti

In this thread we were discussing the Problem of Evil or Pain or whatever it's called in the form of starving children in third world countries. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31622-7.html

I was already frustrated and sickened enough and had decided to stop responding when I came across this gem

Do Christians REALLY believe this shit? An AIDS infected, starving baby can HANDLE it? I do not remember ever being so stunned. I think I might even want to resurrect the Pictures as Proof thread to show people what God expects some people to "handle".

Any Christians, please respond to this and help me understand because I am mortified, horrified, and dumbfounded.

seebs

I'm not even sure when babies acquire the level of self-awareness that I would associate with "handling it".

As to the rest... Ugh. My thinking is, if the poster in question had been born to a starving family, he or she would have found that, indeed, you can handle whatever happens. "The only thing which is unbearable is that nothing is unbearable."

Ahh, but you're still breathing, 'cuz God only sends you what you can handle. <-- hey, can we get a colon-P "sticking tongue out" smiley?

I personally believe that the scale of human suffering and joy is pretty stable. Pain and suffering are not the same thing. The worst pain you've ever felt is pretty much the same for everyone, no matter how bad or mild it was; the scale self-adjusts to handle the scale of your experiences. This leads to a lot of misunderstandings; when people talk about "wages" in very poor or very rich places, they are not understanding the implications of cost of living or *standard* of living.

When I lived in China, I spent a year having to boil water before drinking it, using a gas stove that was in constant danger of exploding, and pouring boiling water down behind the cabinet to flush out cockroaches. Now, I live on the fringes of Saint Paul, I haven't seen a cockroach in a decade, and I have a microwave.

It's the *same*. Making food takes a bit of effort and involves a few rituals I pay no attention to. Shopping is about the same; "go to the store, get some stuff, come back". I am more upset by the loss of "italian herb" bread machine mix than I was by the inability to get meat some weeks in China, because my expectations have shifted.

As to the rest... I see it as the problem of evil, and admit that I'm a bit stumped. I feel that the mere fact that this problem is still there for us to talk about after over a decade is a sign of a serious problem. I admit to not knowing what to do; no amount of financial aid would solve the problem of Africa's many ongoing wars. Maybe we could be funding massive educational programs - but where? The wars make it very, very, hard to *DO* anything.

That said, I think there is a real problem with the lack of effort on our part; "our" meaning us as individuals, Christianity, and America - the only groups I can speak for at all. I personally have no really good excuse; I've been "trying to get my life in order" and helping out my immediate friends; I'm not sure whether perhaps I should have instead spent some of those resources on other people, but it's pretty easy for humans to filter stuff out as "happening elsewhere".

Anyway, I don't have good answers to this. I do think the argument that this is "teaching valuable lessons", and that we aren't involved because we wouldn't learn from it, terrifying. I mean, if anyone could learn something by spending a week or two with AIDS, starving, in Africa, it's probably people who aren't doing it the rest of the time. Otherwise, it's just all there's ever been, and you never learn anything from that.

Toto

I'm not a Christian and don't mean to stick up for them, but this doesn't sound like Christian doctrine to me - it sounds like fuzzy New Age thinking. It's the sort of thing one overfed, overprivileged American says to another who has encountered some temporary problem, to encourage their friend to think that the Universe really is some benevolent machine that will work out in the end, and evil is just here to "thicken the plot", (as Krishnamurthy said when asked why there is evil in the world.)

I don't think that anyone who thought about this for two minutes would agree with it, whatever their theology.

Marduk

"We only go through struggles that god knows we can surpass and overcome. "

Then why are there suicides and people living in the back wards of mental hospitals or on skid row? Did God say "shit, I could have sworn he could have handeled that, ooops"

"What does not kill me makes me stronger"

Who said that?

(no not Anthrax, they only quoted it.)

Toto

Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzche, the "God is dead" man.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I've heard lots of Christians say such things, but none that I would consider 'intellectuals'.

It's so obviously wrong, it hardly bears a response.

Keith.

Bree

I am equally sickened by the people who say the reason other people suffer so horribly is so we can learn from that suffering and come out better people for it.

That's just twisted.

beyelzu

i believe absolutely and fundamentally in the potential for greatness in all human beings. i also think that most of them suck. i gave up being surprised by the crap some people will say a while ago.

serious note, i do however argue that there is no virture in need. so because the people need help does not necessarily mean that we should help them as a country.

however ladyshea i do empathize with you, the kind of twisted logic that that post represented is reprehensible.

Amie

I wish I had some answers for you Lady Shea. There is so much about this world that I do not understand when it comes to my own God belief. i don't know why some things happen as they do.

I can only speak from experience when I say that any time in my life when I went through times of suffering it was then that I feel I had the greatest amount of growth. But that is looking back at things. I still don't understand why some of the things happened to me but I have grown and learned from every experience that I have had.

I too believe in the potential for greatness in all human beings but I think most people are good.

Jackalope

Don't even get me started...read my comments in Moral Foundations about The Moral High Ground and why chronic pain patients often commit suicide.

That which does not kill me makes me meaner.

--Lee