Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PalestineChic19 · 05-03-2003, 05:44 PM

thankfully, my suit was settled recently, I was found innocent of the charges (consipracy to commit terrorist actions, or something of that nature) I was acquitted of the charges, but they remain on my criminal record, which my lawyers and I are working on repealing now, with minimal success.
As for other arab atheists from my country, no i don't know very many. I think maybe 4 or 5 in all, I;m sure that there are more, but they are just not open to anyone about their lack of faith. Especially anyone atheist still living in Saudi doesn;t make it known because of fear of the mutawwas (islamic religious police), and they never know what the consequences for being atheist would be. I'm not even sure what they are. my guess is that you would most likely be excommunicated from your family, which is bad, and probably not allowed to marry.
what Sphinx said earlier about the non-existance of the concept of "anti-semitism" is true. In saudi arabia, it just didn't exist, it wasn't part of our culture, our history. the only time you will ever hear about it is in a Western Culture Studies class (if you have it!) in University. We fromt eh Arab world are not having the same guilt about the Holocaust, ect., that western civilization has, It just doesn't exist in Arab society. my guess is that western society feels "guilty" over what happened to the Jews for some reason, even though most of them aren't responsible, whereas We know that we aren't responsible. the guilt over Jewish persecution just seems like a rediculous concept to us, and it really is.

and about the Muslim Brotherhood, It was founded, destroyed, replaced, came back, and now it's a very small underground society which makes no difference whatsoever basically. I'd suggest a book on political islam by Anthony Shadid, it's called "Legacy of the Prophet: Despots, Democrats, and the New Politics of Islam", it's an excellent read on the topic of this discusion. the author is an Egyptian Christian.

-Sami

-Sami

karthik · 05-03-2003, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman
Omar,
I believe Islamic fundamentalism gained foothold because the Palestinians saw themselves as wronged. However, the Koran is filled with hate for Jews. Also in Spain, the Jews had to live as dhimmis --- which meant they had practically no rights and could be killed at any time depending on mood of the Sultans.

To everyone, two of my acquiantances gave me some more reasons for the ongoing war:
1) Palestine was a uncivilized place. Israel created a civilization, and now the Palestinians want to steal their labour. That is why they refuse to compromise.
Even if ISrael allows a Palestinian state, the arabs world will never honour it and suicide bombings will continue.

2) Though Israel had offered deals with Palestine they had always come with strings attached. in the various land settlements they offered, Israel did not give any water sources to Palestinians, but kept them all in heir own territory. This would make any independent Palestine state a vassal of Israel.

Comments?

The British could have justified the colonization of India in the guise of civilizing the natives. Or probably the egyptians could demand the annexation of Israel considering that they were far advanced in civilization during the OT times. This aside the lousy brits never got it right in partitioning countries.

Loren Pechtel · 05-03-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
If I recall correctly, the driver wasn't in combat. Rules of engagement don't apply.

His mission was to destroy that house.

Jeremy Pallant · 05-03-2003, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
His mission was to destroy that house.

Rules of Engagement apply to combat. He wasn't in combat. He wasn't even in any danger. His mission was to destroy the house, but Nuremberg established that "just obeying orders" is no defence. There are such things as illegal orders. The driver murdered a non-combatant.

sphinx wui · 05-03-2003, 07:57 PM

palestinechic, Sami ???????????

i thought you are a girl!!! i know that you have ethnic identity problem but i wonder if there is also gender identity problem?

yguy · 05-03-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
I don't expect a soldier to commit murder. Oh, and don't forget, his target was a civilian's home. He wasn't in combat. But I guess that was in the past and can't readily be undone.

It is not an established fact that the driver saw Rachel Corrie, so at this point it remains a homicide. Predictably, her compatriots swore up and down that she was in his face, but there were differing accounts from other witnesses according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

hinduwoman · 05-03-2003, 08:03 PM

sphinx wui

Is it not fascinating that instead of quoting from the Koran to prove that Muhammad felt friendly towards Jews, you immediately launched into an attack on ManuSamhita?

However Manusamhita's position is not that of the topranking scriptures, it is a lawbook.

Now this is what Islamic lawmakers have to say about non-muslims:
"This is why the Leader of the faithful [second caliph,] Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians [when he conquered Jerusalem], THESE CONDITIONS THAT ENSURED THEIR CONTINUED HUMILIATION, DEGRADATION AND DISGRACE.
"The scholars of Hadith narrated from Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ashari that he said, �I recorded for Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham:
" � " In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city.
" � " When you [Muslims] came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.
" � "We made a condition on ourselves that WE WILL NEITHER ERECT IN OUR AREAS A MONASTERY, CHURCH OR A SANCTUARY FOR A MONK, OR RESTORE ANY PLACE OF WORSHIP THAT NEEDS RESTORATION nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.
" � "We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guest, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.
" � "We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims
" � "we will not teach our children the quran, publicize practices of shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing islam, if they choose to do so.
" � "WE WILL RESPECT MUSLIMS, MOVE FROM PLACES WE SIT IF THEY CHOOSE TO SIT IN THEM.
" � "we will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, haristyles, speech, nicknams and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.
" � "We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.
" � "We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, REFRAIN FROM ERECTING CROSSES ON THE OUTSIDE OF OUR CHURCHES AND DEMONSTRATING THEM AND OUR BOOKS IN PUBLIC IN MUSLIM FAIRWAYS AND MARKETS.
" � "WE WILL NOT SOUND THE BELLS IN OUR CHURCHES, EXCEPT DISCRETELY, OR RAISE OUR VOICES WHILE RECITING OUR HOLY BOOKS INSIDE OUR CHURCHES IN THE PRESENCE OF MUSLIMS, NOR RAISE OUR VOICES [WITH PRAYER] AT OUR FUNERALS, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.
" � "We will not bury our dead next to the Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims.
" � "We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes."
" � When I gave this document to Umar , he added to it,
" � "We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then out Dhimmah [promise of protection] is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion."�"
[Al-Muhalla, by Ibn Hazm, 7:346]
Quoting from Tasfir Ibn Kathir (Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh: 2000),
Volume 4, pp.404-407.

AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated

whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed

- but it is a substitute for destruction with regard to the future, not with regard to the past, because infidels are liable to be put to death only in future, in consequence of future war, and not in the past. In the same manner, it is also a substitute and in the past...
AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
[Arrear of capitation-tax is remitted, upon the subject's decease, or conversion to the faith]
If a person become a Muslim, who is indebted for any arrear of capitation-tax, such arrear is remitted : and in the same manner, the arrear of capitation-tax due from a Zimmee is remitted upon his dying in a state of infidelity...capitation-tax is a species of punishment inflicted upon infidels on account of their infidelity, whence it is termed Jizyat, which is derived from Jizya, meaning retribution; now the temporal punishment of infidelity is remitted in consequence of conversion to the faith; and after death it cannot be inflicted, because temporal punishments are instituted solely for the purpose of removing evil, which is removed by either death or Islam. Thirdly, capitation-tax is a substitute for aid to the Muslims, and as the infidel in question, upon embracing the faith, becomes enabled to aid them in his own person, capitation- tax consequently drops upon his Islam.

AL-RISALA (Maliki Manual)
37.04 BLOOD RATE TO OTHER THAN MUSLIM MEN
The blood-wit for a woman shall be half that of a man. Similarly the blood-wit for a male Christian or Jew is half that of a male Muslim, and the blood-wit for their women is half that of their men. As for a Magian, his blood-wit is eight hundred dirhams. The blood-wit for their women is half that of their men. Similarly, in respect of wounds, compensation given to non-Muslims is half what is given to their Muslim counterparts.
4833
AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual)
Christians and Jews may testify concerning each other
The testimony of Zimmees with respect to each other is admissible, notwithstanding they be of different religions. Malik and Shafe'i have said that their evidence is absolutely inadmissible, because, as infidels are unjust, it is requisite to be slow in believing any thing they may advance, God having said (in the Koran) "WHEN AN UNJUST PERSON TELLS YOU ANY THING, BE SLOW IN BELIEVING HIM; "whence it is that the evidence of an infidel is not admitted concerning a Muslim; and consequently, that an infidel stands (in this particular) in the same predicament with an apostate. The arguments of our doctors upon this point are twofold. First, it is related of the prophet, that he permitted and held lawful the testimony of some Christians concerning others of their sect. Secondly, an infidel having power over himself, and his minor children, is on that account qualified to be a witness with regard to his faith is not destructive of this qualification, because he is supposed to abstain from every thing prohibited in his own religion, and falsehood is prohibited in every religion. It is otherwise with respect to an apostate, as he possesses no power, either over his own person, or over that of another; and it is also otherwise with respect to a Zimmee in relation to a Muslim, because a Zimmee has no power over the person of a Muslim. Besides, a Zimmee may be suspected of inventing falsehoods against a Muslim, from the hatred he bears to him on account of the superiority of the Muslims over him.
3197
AL-HEDAYA Vol. I (Hanafi Manual)
[Qualification of a witness]
It is necessary that the witnesses be ... Muslims; the evidence of infidels not being legal with respect to Muslims.
AL-RISALA (Maliki Manual)

If the logic is that of a different time, it is even more applicable to Manusamhita. Even if they actually applied these punishements, by 300 B.C they could not do it anymore because Sudra kings had risen to power by then.
**

Bhukari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 447:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went out with him till we came to Bait-al-Midras. The Prophet stood up there and called them, saying, "O assembly of Jews! Surrender to Allah (embrace Islam) and you will be safe!" They said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-al-Qasim" Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want; embrace Islam and you will be safe." They said, "You have conveyed the message, O Aba-al-Qasim." Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want," and repeated his words for the third time and added, "Know that the earth is for Allah and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you has property he should sell it, otherwise, know that the land is for Allah and His Apostle."

Hadith Malik 511:1588, The last statement that Muhammad made was: "O Lord, perish the Jews and Christians. They made churches of the graves of their prophets. There shall be no two faiths in Arabia."

At least the Sudras would have to do something to be punished. But to Allah's Prophet, merely being a Jew is enough.
***

Koran, specifically about Jews:
[2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.

"Verily, you will find the Jews the greediest of mankind for life and even greedier than those [pagans and Christians] who ascribe partners to Allah" (2.96).

3.75. Among the people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] is he who, if entrusted with a Cantar [a great amount of wealth, etc.], will readily pay it back; and among them there is he who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stand demanding, because they say: "There is no blame on us to betray and take the properties of the illiterates [Arabs]." But they tell a lie against Allah while they know it.

3.78. Among them are those who distort the Book with their tongues, so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book. They say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. They speak a lie against Allah while they know it. Do not make friends of those outside your religion, since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse...

3.119. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures while they disbelieve in your Book [Koran]. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe". But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say [to them]: "Perish in your rage."

3.120. If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if you remain patient and become Al-Muttaq��n (the pious), not the least harm will their cunning do to you.

[4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way.

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

[5.80] You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

[5.81] And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! most of them are transgressors.

[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

[5.86] And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the companions of the flame.

[17.4] And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.

Any Jewhater can find ample justification in these verses.

Loren Pechtel · 05-03-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
It is not an established fact that the driver saw Rachel Corrie, so at this point it remains a homicide. Predictably, her compatriots swore up and down that she was in his face, but there were differing accounts from other witnesses according to CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

There was an article in the local paper, but on the op-ed page, saying that she had been on a rise and had fallen backwards off it when she tried to get out of the way--thus she was behind it.

hinduwoman · 05-03-2003, 08:34 PM

I searched and found more about the water issue:

http://fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html

Quote:

At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel�s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).
But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon.com 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn�t clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).
The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region�s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.
Because of the geographic placement of Israel�s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new �independent state� would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called �bypass roads� that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.
Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

You seriously expect any state to agree with having no water sources?

Darwin26 · 05-03-2003, 08:35 PM

their= all of these *Peoples* absurd desire to be catapaulted to heaven, conspiring in their congregation to be better than the next congregation just through belief in some invisible monster and the clap trap words sanctified by priestcraft... Seems all religion(s) mock their own justice through Hubris... non believers can only laff at this witless pile of BS...the Talamud, the Quran, the Bible ... the most devisive texts of hate and pride ...all should be burned ...they are the ruination of mankind.

Nice Work Hinduwoman !
the sooner all priests, rabbis and the religious police get these (this info) into the light of day the sooner they'll see the hypocrisy of it all

05-03-2003, 07:57 PM	#105
sphinx wui Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: egypt Posts: 253	Sami ????!!!!!!!!!!! palestinechic, Sami ??????????? i thought you are a girl!!! i know that you have ethnic identity problem but i wonder if there is also gender identity problem?

05-03-2003, 08:35 PM	#110
Darwin26 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Encino, CA Posts: 806	is it their one dimension their= all of these Peoples absurd desire to be catapaulted to heaven, conspiring in their congregation to be better than the next congregation just through belief in some invisible monster and the clap trap words sanctified by priestcraft... Seems all religion(s) mock their own justice through Hubris... non believers can only laff at this witless pile of BS...the Talamud, the Quran, the Bible ... the most devisive texts of hate and pride ...all should be burned ...they are the ruination of mankind. Nice Work Hinduwoman ! the sooner all priests, rabbis and the religious police get these (this info) into the light of day the sooner they'll see the hypocrisy of it all

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05-03-2003, 05:44 PM	#101
PalestineChic19 Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 153	thankfully, my suit was settled recently, I was found innocent of the charges (consipracy to commit terrorist actions, or something of that nature) I was acquitted of the charges, but they remain on my criminal record, which my lawyers and I are working on repealing now, with minimal success. As for other arab atheists from my country, no i don't know very many. I think maybe 4 or 5 in all, I;m sure that there are more, but they are just not open to anyone about their lack of faith. Especially anyone atheist still living in Saudi doesn;t make it known because of fear of the mutawwas (islamic religious police), and they never know what the consequences for being atheist would be. I'm not even sure what they are. my guess is that you would most likely be excommunicated from your family, which is bad, and probably not allowed to marry. what Sphinx said earlier about the non-existance of the concept of "anti-semitism" is true. In saudi arabia, it just didn't exist, it wasn't part of our culture, our history. the only time you will ever hear about it is in a Western Culture Studies class (if you have it!) in University. We fromt eh Arab world are not having the same guilt about the Holocaust, ect., that western civilization has, It just doesn't exist in Arab society. my guess is that western society feels "guilty" over what happened to the Jews for some reason, even though most of them aren't responsible, whereas We know that we aren't responsible. the guilt over Jewish persecution just seems like a rediculous concept to us, and it really is. and about the Muslim Brotherhood, It was founded, destroyed, replaced, came back, and now it's a very small underground society which makes no difference whatsoever basically. I'd suggest a book on political islam by Anthony Shadid, it's called "Legacy of the Prophet: Despots, Democrats, and the New Politics of Islam", it's an excellent read on the topic of this discusion. the author is an Egyptian Christian. -Sami -Sami

05-03-2003, 08:03 PM	#107
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	sphinx wui Is it not fascinating that instead of quoting from the Koran to prove that Muhammad felt friendly towards Jews, you immediately launched into an attack on ManuSamhita? However Manusamhita's position is not that of the topranking scriptures, it is a lawbook. Now this is what Islamic lawmakers have to say about non-muslims: "This is why the Leader of the faithful [second caliph,] Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians [when he conquered Jerusalem], THESE CONDITIONS THAT ENSURED THEIR CONTINUED HUMILIATION, DEGRADATION AND DISGRACE. "The scholars of Hadith narrated from Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ashari that he said, �I recorded for Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: " � " In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. " � " When you [Muslims] came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. " � "We made a condition on ourselves that WE WILL NEITHER ERECT IN OUR AREAS A MONASTERY, CHURCH OR A SANCTUARY FOR A MONK, OR RESTORE ANY PLACE OF WORSHIP THAT NEEDS RESTORATION nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. " � "We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guest, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. " � "We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims " � "we will not teach our children the quran, publicize practices of shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing islam, if they choose to do so. " � "WE WILL RESPECT MUSLIMS, MOVE FROM PLACES WE SIT IF THEY CHOOSE TO SIT IN THEM. " � "we will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, haristyles, speech, nicknams and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. " � "We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. " � "We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, REFRAIN FROM ERECTING CROSSES ON THE OUTSIDE OF OUR CHURCHES AND DEMONSTRATING THEM AND OUR BOOKS IN PUBLIC IN MUSLIM FAIRWAYS AND MARKETS. " � "WE WILL NOT SOUND THE BELLS IN OUR CHURCHES, EXCEPT DISCRETELY, OR RAISE OUR VOICES WHILE RECITING OUR HOLY BOOKS INSIDE OUR CHURCHES IN THE PRESENCE OF MUSLIMS, NOR RAISE OUR VOICES [WITH PRAYER] AT OUR FUNERALS, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. " � "We will not bury our dead next to the Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. " � "We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes." " � When I gave this document to Umar , he added to it, " � "We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then out Dhimmah [promise of protection] is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion."�" [Al-Muhalla, by Ibn Hazm, 7:346] Quoting from Tasfir Ibn Kathir (Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh: 2000), Volume 4, pp.404-407. AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual) ... capitation-tax is a sort of punishment inflicted upon infidels for their obstinacy in infidelity, (as was before stated whence it is that it cannot be accepted of the infidel if he send it by the hands of a messenger, but must be exacted in a mortifying and humiliating manner, by the collector sitting and receiving it from him in a standing posture : (according to one tradition, the collector is to seize him by the throat, and shake him, saying, "Pay your tax, Zimmee!) - It is therefore evident that capitation-tax is a punishment; and where two punishments come together, they are compounded, in the same manner as in Hidd, or stated punishment. Secondly, capitation-tax is a substitute for destruction in respect to the infidels, and a substitute for personal aid in respect to the Muslims, (as was before observed - but it is a substitute for destruction with regard to the future, not with regard to the past, because infidels are liable to be put to death only in future, in consequence of future war, and not in the past. In the same manner, it is also a substitute and in the past... AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual) [Arrear of capitation-tax is remitted, upon the subject's decease, or conversion to the faith] If a person become a Muslim, who is indebted for any arrear of capitation-tax, such arrear is remitted : and in the same manner, the arrear of capitation-tax due from a Zimmee is remitted upon his dying in a state of infidelity...capitation-tax is a species of punishment inflicted upon infidels on account of their infidelity, whence it is termed Jizyat, which is derived from Jizya, meaning retribution; now the temporal punishment of infidelity is remitted in consequence of conversion to the faith; and after death it cannot be inflicted, because temporal punishments are instituted solely for the purpose of removing evil, which is removed by either death or Islam. Thirdly, capitation-tax is a substitute for aid to the Muslims, and as the infidel in question, upon embracing the faith, becomes enabled to aid them in his own person, capitation- tax consequently drops upon his Islam. AL-RISALA (Maliki Manual) 37.04 BLOOD RATE TO OTHER THAN MUSLIM MEN The blood-wit for a woman shall be half that of a man. Similarly the blood-wit for a male Christian or Jew is half that of a male Muslim, and the blood-wit for their women is half that of their men. As for a Magian, his blood-wit is eight hundred dirhams. The blood-wit for their women is half that of their men. Similarly, in respect of wounds, compensation given to non-Muslims is half what is given to their Muslim counterparts. 4833 AL-HEDAYA Vol. II (Hanafi Manual) Christians and Jews may testify concerning each other The testimony of Zimmees with respect to each other is admissible, notwithstanding they be of different religions. Malik and Shafe'i have said that their evidence is absolutely inadmissible, because, as infidels are unjust, it is requisite to be slow in believing any thing they may advance, God having said (in the Koran) "WHEN AN UNJUST PERSON TELLS YOU ANY THING, BE SLOW IN BELIEVING HIM; "whence it is that the evidence of an infidel is not admitted concerning a Muslim; and consequently, that an infidel stands (in this particular) in the same predicament with an apostate. The arguments of our doctors upon this point are twofold. First, it is related of the prophet, that he permitted and held lawful the testimony of some Christians concerning others of their sect. Secondly, an infidel having power over himself, and his minor children, is on that account qualified to be a witness with regard to his faith is not destructive of this qualification, because he is supposed to abstain from every thing prohibited in his own religion, and falsehood is prohibited in every religion. It is otherwise with respect to an apostate, as he possesses no power, either over his own person, or over that of another; and it is also otherwise with respect to a Zimmee in relation to a Muslim, because a Zimmee has no power over the person of a Muslim. Besides, a Zimmee may be suspected of inventing falsehoods against a Muslim, from the hatred he bears to him on account of the superiority of the Muslims over him. 3197 AL-HEDAYA Vol. I (Hanafi Manual) [Qualification of a witness] It is necessary that the witnesses be ... Muslims; the evidence of infidels not being legal with respect to Muslims. AL-RISALA (Maliki Manual) If the logic is that of a different time, it is even more applicable to Manusamhita. Even if they actually applied these punishements, by 300 B.C they could not do it anymore because Sudra kings had risen to power by then. Bhukari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 447: Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went out with him till we came to Bait-al-Midras. The Prophet stood up there and called them, saying, "O assembly of Jews! Surrender to Allah (embrace Islam) and you will be safe!" They said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-al-Qasim" Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want; embrace Islam and you will be safe." They said, "You have conveyed the message, O Aba-al-Qasim." Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want," and repeated his words for the third time and added, "Know that the earth is for Allah and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you has property he should sell it, otherwise, know that the land is for Allah and His Apostle." Hadith Malik 511:1588, The last statement that Muhammad made was: "O Lord, perish the Jews and Christians. They made churches of the graves of their prophets. There shall be no two faiths in Arabia." At least the Sudras would have to do something to be punished. But to Allah's Prophet, merely being a Jew is enough. * Koran, specifically about Jews: [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe. "Verily, you will find the Jews the greediest of mankind for life and even greedier than those [pagans and Christians] who ascribe partners to Allah" (2.96). 3.75. Among the people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] is he who, if entrusted with a Cantar [a great amount of wealth, etc.], will readily pay it back; and among them there is he who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stand demanding, because they say: "There is no blame on us to betray and take the properties of the illiterates [Arabs]." But they tell a lie against Allah while they know it. 3.78. Among them are those who distort the Book with their tongues, so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book. They say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. They speak a lie against Allah while they know it. Do not make friends of those outside your religion, since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse... 3.119. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures while they disbelieve in your Book [Koran]. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe". But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say [to them]: "Perish in your rage." 3.120. If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if you remain patient and become Al-Muttaq��n (the pious), not the least harm will their cunning do to you. [4.160] Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way. [5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path. [5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers. [5.80] You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide. [5.81] And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! most of them are transgressors. [5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly. [5.86] And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the companions of the flame. [17.4] And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence. Any Jewhater can find ample justification in these verses.

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