Freethought & Rationalism Archive

foursquareman · 07-18-2002, 09:24 PM

but more and more people are becoming christians. The majority of the worlds population consider themselves christian.

Doubting Didymus · 07-18-2002, 09:35 PM

That is a logical fallacy, the argument from population. The fact that many people consider a thing true does not give any assurance that it is. I also think that you have got it completely the wrong way around. A recent poll of the U.S. shows that christianity is in decline, and non-religiousity is on the rise. I quote Paul Kurtz in the current issue of free inquiry:

Quote:

Today there are 29.4 million American adults who have no religious identification�an increase since 1990 from 8.16 percent to 14.17 percent.

It must be granted that a preponderance of the public (if often only nominally) still self-identifies as Christian-77 percent in 2001, in comparison with 86.7 percent in 1990. Yet here, too, this is a 9 percent decline. Today those with no religion are the third-largest minority, after Roman Catholics (50.9 million) and Baptists (33.8 million).

Also, I see that you and I both come from Australia, a country with a huge atheist population. If you think that the number of people believing a thing contributes to how true it is, you have a problem reconciling this.

foursquareman · 07-18-2002, 09:39 PM

it does not give certaintity to its validity, but it sure does add validity to it.

By the way, Australia has a huge christian population as well. The other day, Hillsong held a crhistion worship conference at the superdome and packed it with 20 thousand people as well as a 3 thousand overflow.

By the way, i never claimed that this is what validates my faith.

Doubting Didymus · 07-18-2002, 09:56 PM

Your claim that having many believers 'adds' validity to your faith is equally false. (Do I really have to point out the whole flat earth thing?, I guess so.) The entire population once thought the earth was flat. That did not 'add' any validity at all to that belief.

Yes, Australia has a christian majority, but according to cencus 2001, christianity lost a whopping 28% of its support to non - religion in the past hundred years. Your claim that "I see people converting in their thousands" is a worldwide untruth. People are in fact converting in their thousands AWAY from christianity.

I am quite amused by these two statements:

"it does not give certaintity to its validity, but it sure does add validity to it."

and in the same post:

"By the way, i never claimed that this is what validates my faith"

So what really validates your faith? Put it this way: if you were an atheist, what would make you convert to christianity and not one of the other religions?

Echo · 07-19-2002, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by foursquareman:
<strong>but more and more people are becoming christians. The majority of the worlds population consider themselves christian.</strong>

This is simply untrue. The stats I have seen, from a number of different sources, all show that Christians account for roughly 40 percent of the world population, meaning that 60 percent - the majority - do *not* consider themselves Christian.

Half of that Christian figure is Roman Catholic, a denomination that many evangelical Christians do not consider Christian to begin with, which would cut the total world population of Christians down to less than 20%.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether Christianity is true. Foursquareman, are you suggesting that people only convert to religions that are true?? If so, you have a lot of explaining to do in order to account for the rapid growth of other religions. Islam, Bahai, and various neo-pagan and "New Age" religions spring to mind.

Perchance · 07-19-2002, 06:28 AM

foursquareman:

I agree that you have a perfect right to hold your beliefs, and defend them however you like.

However, we also have a perfect right to hold our own beliefs, which may include some that contradict your own, and to point out some problems (like logical fallacies) that we have with your defense of your beliefs.

As an interesting hypothetical question: Do you think that if all the non-believers in the world agreed to stop criticizing Christian beliefs, would the Christians agree to stop evangelizing?
(I should add that I think it would be ridiculous and a restriction on free speech for this to happen, but we're talking about people agreeing of their own free will).

I've asked believers this before, and never gotten an answer. I'm interested in what your answer would be.

-Perchance.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

yahwehyadayada · 07-19-2002, 06:35 AM

I exploit you, still you love me. I tell you one & one makes three. I'm the cult of personality.--Living ColorSince, IMO, xians have imbued their gawd with characteristics like benevolence, anger, mercy, etc., their religion seems like a cult of personality.
And let's not forget omniscience & omnipotence: I know your anger, I know your dreams. I've been everything you want to be. I'm the cult of personality.
And televangelists are in on the act, too: I sell the things you need to be. I'm the smiling face on your tv. I'm the cult of personality.
And for the mentally challenged person in the white house: You gave me fortune, you gave me fame. You gave me power in your god's name.
Fortunately, You don't have to follow me. Only you can set you free.

A3 · 07-19-2002, 07:52 AM

Hi Michael,

Have just a minute so here goes.
I don't believe God is in any more need to receive our worship than parents to get a picture of their 3 yr old. It is purely for our benefit.
It is to be thankful towards the Source of life, that from ourselves we can do nothing, and that we should do as He says. Much like this 3 yr old should listen when told not to cross the street, to not climb on the chair etc. If we acknowledge who we are and our limitations we will be so much more content and happy as a side-effect (and so will everybody else).

Regards
Adriaan

Vesica · 07-19-2002, 08:34 AM

First, to Keith, I can understand your strong reliance on reason but it does only go so far....Reason does nothing to make my subjective experience of life and living...Reason does not explain love, or beauty or peace...It has its place but I fail to see how one belief that is not strictly governed by reason means that person shoudl just go ahead and act hatefully towards others because someone said so or believe in things every bit as ridiculous (from some people's vantage) as religion....

You kind of sound like you are jumping on the 'Religious people are obviously morons' bandwagon....

Re: Worship
I was introduced to 'Worship' time in a church service as being a time to think about God and focus on the good things in your life and to say 'thanks'....even for the silly stuff, like being able to enjoy ice cream on a hot day.

And if this is worship, then I do worship others in that I try to be vocal in my gratitude for help, consideration etc. and in praise for a job well done, be those people my family, wait staff at a restaurant or my political representatives...

Of course, that is only one persons perspective on the point of worship...

Perchance · 07-20-2002, 06:05 AM

A question...

Doesn't worshipping God as the source of life, or as the divine parent, or as whatever you think of him/her/it as, necessitate that you first believe God exists?

In other words, what reason would a non-believer have to worship, unless he or she had already come to a conclusion that God existed, logically or emotionally?

-Perchance.

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07-18-2002, 09:24 PM	#31
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	but more and more people are becoming christians. The majority of the worlds population consider themselves christian.

07-18-2002, 09:39 PM	#33
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	it does not give certaintity to its validity, but it sure does add validity to it. By the way, Australia has a huge christian population as well. The other day, Hillsong held a crhistion worship conference at the superdome and packed it with 20 thousand people as well as a 3 thousand overflow. By the way, i never claimed that this is what validates my faith.

07-18-2002, 09:56 PM	#34
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Your claim that having many believers 'adds' validity to your faith is equally false. (Do I really have to point out the whole flat earth thing?, I guess so.) The entire population once thought the earth was flat. That did not 'add' any validity at all to that belief. Yes, Australia has a christian majority, but according to cencus 2001, christianity lost a whopping 28% of its support to non - religion in the past hundred years. Your claim that "I see people converting in their thousands" is a worldwide untruth. People are in fact converting in their thousands AWAY from christianity. I am quite amused by these two statements: "it does not give certaintity to its validity, but it sure does add validity to it." and in the same post: "By the way, i never claimed that this is what validates my faith" So what really validates your faith? Put it this way: if you were an atheist, what would make you convert to christianity and not one of the other religions?

07-19-2002, 06:28 AM	#36
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	foursquareman: I agree that you have a perfect right to hold your beliefs, and defend them however you like. However, we also have a perfect right to hold our own beliefs, which may include some that contradict your own, and to point out some problems (like logical fallacies) that we have with your defense of your beliefs. As an interesting hypothetical question: Do you think that if all the non-believers in the world agreed to stop criticizing Christian beliefs, would the Christians agree to stop evangelizing? (I should add that I think it would be ridiculous and a restriction on free speech for this to happen, but we're talking about people agreeing of their own free will). I've asked believers this before, and never gotten an answer. I'm interested in what your answer would be. -Perchance. [ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

07-19-2002, 06:35 AM	#37
yahwehyadayada Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: WI Posts: 290	I exploit you, still you love me. I tell you one & one makes three. I'm the cult of personality.--Living ColorSince, IMO, xians have imbued their gawd with characteristics like benevolence, anger, mercy, etc., their religion seems like a cult of personality. And let's not forget omniscience & omnipotence: I know your anger, I know your dreams. I've been everything you want to be. I'm the cult of personality. And televangelists are in on the act, too: I sell the things you need to be. I'm the smiling face on your tv. I'm the cult of personality. And for the mentally challenged person in the white house: You gave me fortune, you gave me fame. You gave me power in your god's name. Fortunately, You don't have to follow me. Only you can set you free.

07-19-2002, 07:52 AM	#38
A3 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 166	Hi Michael, Have just a minute so here goes. I don't believe God is in any more need to receive our worship than parents to get a picture of their 3 yr old. It is purely for our benefit. It is to be thankful towards the Source of life, that from ourselves we can do nothing, and that we should do as He says. Much like this 3 yr old should listen when told not to cross the street, to not climb on the chair etc. If we acknowledge who we are and our limitations we will be so much more content and happy as a side-effect (and so will everybody else). Regards Adriaan

07-19-2002, 08:34 AM	#39
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	First, to Keith, I can understand your strong reliance on reason but it does only go so far....Reason does nothing to make my subjective experience of life and living...Reason does not explain love, or beauty or peace...It has its place but I fail to see how one belief that is not strictly governed by reason means that person shoudl just go ahead and act hatefully towards others because someone said so or believe in things every bit as ridiculous (from some people's vantage) as religion.... You kind of sound like you are jumping on the 'Religious people are obviously morons' bandwagon.... Re: Worship I was introduced to 'Worship' time in a church service as being a time to think about God and focus on the good things in your life and to say 'thanks'....even for the silly stuff, like being able to enjoy ice cream on a hot day. And if this is worship, then I do worship others in that I try to be vocal in my gratitude for help, consideration etc. and in praise for a job well done, be those people my family, wait staff at a restaurant or my political representatives... Of course, that is only one persons perspective on the point of worship...

07-20-2002, 06:05 AM	#40
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	A question... Doesn't worshipping God as the source of life, or as the divine parent, or as whatever you think of him/her/it as, necessitate that you first believe God exists? In other words, what reason would a non-believer have to worship, unless he or she had already come to a conclusion that God existed, logically or emotionally? -Perchance.

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