Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Secular Elation · 09-02-2002, 03:14 PM

A letter to the editor appeared in today's paper in which the author claims that god must be kept in politics. The author makes one claim in particular that I have highlighted. (<a href="http://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/story/1705665p-1824839c.html" target="_blank">(online link to editorial page)</a>)

Quote:

Columnist Roland Nethaway writes that he is deeply concerned about...(gasp)... "Christian fundamentalists both in, and supportive of, the Bush administration."

The Christian fundamentalist (someone who actually believes the bible and tries to live a life based upon its teachings) is always the boggy man of the left. If they cannot offer compelling arguments against the politics of the right then they usually resort to the old bigotry against religion.

The foolishness of this opinion should be self-evident, but I pose this question. If the church and all of its followers were removed from this earth, would it be a better place? Would evil flourish? What would happen to justice and freedom?

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Mao Tsetung -- each responsible for the death and imprisonment of innocent millions -- were secular atheists. The 20th century is covered with the blood of despots who murdered in the name of racism and socialism. In each case, the Christian church was targeted for persecution because it stood in opposition to their tyranny. The very foundation of our democracy is the belief that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." If we remove God from politics, where would we find this truth?

I now direct you to another quote. I don't know if this quote is valid, but I have found it from a few different sources.

Quote:

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction
without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith .... We need believing people.

-Adolf Hitler

Unfortunately, most of those in my city who will read the editorial page will probably take it as fact.

Abacus · 09-02-2002, 03:29 PM

Oh man, you have to write a letter of your own with that Hitler quote.

I wonder how many fundies would say "amen" after hearing that quote if they did not know who it was attributed to? Perhaps most?

Here's an idea for a response letter. Begin with that quote, but do not reveal who said it. Give a little spiel about church/state seperation. Then finally, at the end, reveal that the quote is from Adolph Hitler. Give the readers a little shock treatment.

Buffman · 09-02-2002, 03:35 PM

The very foundation of our democracy is the belief that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." If we remove God from politics, where would we find this truth?

Hilarious! A quote from a Deist who had little use for any organized religion...especially Christianity.

Keep repeating lies long enough, and people begin to believe them because they have never heard the accurate facts...even those that "do" read the editorial pages. In situations like this, all one can do is present the accurate information and hope that the paper will publish it...and that the same people will read it and learn.

Secular Elation · 09-02-2002, 03:41 PM

Oh man, you have to write a letter of your own with that Hitler quote.

It wouldn't accomplish anything. When people read it, they would just say, "Ha, the author does not cite a source. He probably made the quote up."

Abacus · 09-02-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Elation:
<strong>
It wouldn't accomplish anything. When people read it, they would just say, "Ha, the author does not cite a source. He probably made the quote up."</strong>

Well, if that's the case, then some people are beyond all hope.

beejay · 09-02-2002, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Ha, the author does not cite a source

So can any of us find the original source? It's been repeated many times on the Internet which, of course, doesn't make it valid.

It is reportedly from comments during the negotiations or signing of the German-Vatican Concordat in 1933.

It certainly wouldn't have been beneath Hitler to lie about what he really thought to make the Catholic Church feel better about an agreement with him.

Even if we could find the original source for this quote, I suspect a lot of what Hitler said here was for the benefit of the Pope, not truly believed.

hezekiah jones · 09-02-2002, 04:28 PM

Secular atheists?!? Well good heavens I wouldn't want anything to do with them. Thank god I'm a sacred atheist!

Toto · 09-02-2002, 04:29 PM

You can quote a lot of solid sources showing that Hitler thought of himself as a Christian doing God's will.

From <a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/scar_h.htm" target="_blank">Positive Atheism's Big List of Scary Quotes</a> (usually a reliable source)

Quote:

Adolf Hitler (1889-1945)
Austrian-born German Nazi leader

Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know About The Separation of State and Church?"

We stand at the end of the Age of Reason. A new era of the magical explanation of the world is rising.
-- Adolf Hitler, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-hitler.html" target="_blank">More Quotes here</a>

Also

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#hitler" target="_blank">A compendium of the common arguments about Hitler and atheism</a>

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

wade-w · 09-02-2002, 06:01 PM

Quote:

"Fix reason firmly in her seat," wrote Jefferson in his letter of advice, "and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one, He must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfold fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. . . . Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but the uprightness of the decision." (Philip S. Foner, editor, Thomas Jefferson Selections from His Writings, p. 76.)

The above is from a letter that Jefferson wrote to a nephew. Doesn't sound much like a Christian, does it? Thomas Paine, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin were also Deists, among others of the founding fathers. Where does this idiot think the establishment clause of the first ammendment came from?

Quote:

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Mao Tsetung -- each responsible for the death and imprisonment of innocent millions -- were secular atheists. The 20th century is covered with the blood of despots who murdered in the name of racism and socialism.

I wonder if he's ever heard of the Inquisition? What about all the blood that is on the hands of Christians throughout the last 2000 years? What about the genocide that is sanctioned by the bible? And the Church has a long history of pogroms against the Jews. Hitler wasn't doing anything really original, except perhaps the scale. It was a favorite amusement of crusaders to herd a congregation into their synagogue, nail all the doors and windows shut, and then burn it to the ground, with the clergy cheering them on.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: wadew ]</p>

Alonzo Fyfe · 09-02-2002, 06:02 PM

Okay, SE -- you have your quotes. I would like to encourage you to write the letter. Else, people will continue to hold onto these false beliefs, much to our detriment.

But, there are a couple of additional points that are relevant.

First, regardless of Hitler's religious beliefs, the bulk of the Germans who supported his policies and carried out his final solution were Christians. And they accepted Hitler's anti-Semitism for religious reasons. They rounded up the Jews and participated in their execution, while going to church on Sunday, saying grace before meal, and having their children say prayers before bed. And the anti-semitism that Hitler fed on did not spring from Hitler's mind on a virgin landscape -- it was there long before Hitler took power. It was a part of their Christian heritage.

Second, what if Hitler had been atheist? Atheists are not all alike -- some are better than others. Some are downright wicked. Does the fact that there are wicked atheists mean that atheism itself is bad? If it is, then the fact that there are wicked Christians or Muslims should mean that Christianity or Islam itself is bad. And one does not need to go far at all to discover the evil done in the name of God or Allah.

To blame all atheists for evil that may be done by a few is the hallmark of the bigot. It is the very nature and essence of prejudice. A person should be judged by what he himself does, not by what his neighbor does and the fact that he and the neighbor happen to share some characteristic.

If somebody wishes to accuse me of a crime than I demand that they accuse me of a crime that I committed. Barring that, to hold me responsible for somebody else's crime, is the antithesis of justice.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-02-2002, 03:29 PM	#2
Abacus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Dakota Posts: 2,214	Oh man, you have to write a letter of your own with that Hitler quote. I wonder how many fundies would say "amen" after hearing that quote if they did not know who it was attributed to? Perhaps most? Here's an idea for a response letter. Begin with that quote, but do not reveal who said it. Give a little spiel about church/state seperation. Then finally, at the end, reveal that the quote is from Adolph Hitler. Give the readers a little shock treatment.

09-02-2002, 03:35 PM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	The very foundation of our democracy is the belief that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." If we remove God from politics, where would we find this truth? Hilarious! A quote from a Deist who had little use for any organized religion...especially Christianity. Keep repeating lies long enough, and people begin to believe them because they have never heard the accurate facts...even those that "do" read the editorial pages. In situations like this, all one can do is present the accurate information and hope that the paper will publish it...and that the same people will read it and learn.

09-02-2002, 03:41 PM	#4
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	Oh man, you have to write a letter of your own with that Hitler quote. It wouldn't accomplish anything. When people read it, they would just say, "Ha, the author does not cite a source. He probably made the quote up."

09-02-2002, 04:28 PM	#7
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Secular atheists?!? Well good heavens I wouldn't want anything to do with them. Thank god I'm a sacred atheist!

09-02-2002, 06:02 PM	#10
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	Okay, SE -- you have your quotes. I would like to encourage you to write the letter. Else, people will continue to hold onto these false beliefs, much to our detriment. But, there are a couple of additional points that are relevant. First, regardless of Hitler's religious beliefs, the bulk of the Germans who supported his policies and carried out his final solution were Christians. And they accepted Hitler's anti-Semitism for religious reasons. They rounded up the Jews and participated in their execution, while going to church on Sunday, saying grace before meal, and having their children say prayers before bed. And the anti-semitism that Hitler fed on did not spring from Hitler's mind on a virgin landscape -- it was there long before Hitler took power. It was a part of their Christian heritage. Second, what if Hitler had been atheist? Atheists are not all alike -- some are better than others. Some are downright wicked. Does the fact that there are wicked atheists mean that atheism itself is bad? If it is, then the fact that there are wicked Christians or Muslims should mean that Christianity or Islam itself is bad. And one does not need to go far at all to discover the evil done in the name of God or Allah. To blame all atheists for evil that may be done by a few is the hallmark of the bigot. It is the very nature and essence of prejudice. A person should be judged by what he himself does, not by what his neighbor does and the fact that he and the neighbor happen to share some characteristic. If somebody wishes to accuse me of a crime than I demand that they accuse me of a crime that I committed. Barring that, to hold me responsible for somebody else's crime, is the antithesis of justice.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.