Cross Examiner

Demigawd:

How about we narrow the field? What is your primary issue with God and/or the Bible and/or Jesus Christ as savior. We can get more as needed.

Regards,
BGiC

Demigawd

Alright, fair enough. Let's start with the authenticity of Christianity. Christianity's claim to truth is based upon self-reference. The Bible asserts what it contains is the truth. Apologetics for Christianity start with the presumption that their faith is based on truth from the start, and that guides their arguments to be automatically in favor of it.

Granted, Christianity is far from alone in this practice. Indeed, pretty much all religions I have studied use the same tactic: a compilation of literature passed down from generation to generation with the dogma that it's all true, either literally or metaphorically.

So, in the end, I'm left wondering then how can I honestly be expected to consider Christianity valid, or at least more credible than any other world religion.

Asha'man

Read my words carefully. I said an utter lack of convincing evidence. I am not convinced, therefore the evidence presented is not convincing.

Actually, there is an utter lack of clear and objective evidence as well. Everything ever presented as evidence is entirely anecdotal or subjective. There has never been anything presented to me that I could personally verify, or actually supported what it claimed to. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

But a lack of knowledge does destroy it. You can’t make an honest choice if you are unaware of the existence of one or more options. That is my point, God can’t pretend to give us free will if he leaves us ignorant. You were explaining why God had to leave us ignorant to preserve free will, remember?
Very true. So why does God even tell us about Hell? Just as I can’t freely choose to hand my wallet to a robber when he holds a gun to my head, I can’t possibly freely choose between Hell and not-Hell.

So how exactly do I get free will out of this situation? If I am left ignorant, I have no free will. If I am fully informed about Hell, I have no free will. Who was the genius that set up this situation? Oh yea, theists invented this as an excuse for why God’s plan seems so screwed up.

You have waxed eloquently into incoherence here. Pharaoh had no free will, God clearly forced his hand, “hardened his heart,” left him no choice at all. You even admitted it yourself. So how exactly does this prove that God respects free will in his creations? Actually, it proves my point perfectly, that God seems to abandon free will whenever it suits the storyteller.

And what type of sick, sadistic bastard would punish an entire country for the actions of a leader who was being played like a puppet by God himself?

If an omnipotent being wanted to talk to me, I would know. If God is unable to communicate clearly, then he isn’t very competent, now is he? There are a billion and one ways for him to communicate effectively and convincingly, but he has apparently tried none of them. Clearly, he is either incompetent or apathetic about talking to me. Which is it?

Cross Examiner

Demigawd,

I appreciate the attempt to narrow down the field but Jesus vs. the other gods is still a rather broad subject. We'll need a more specific starting point. Here are some thoughts:

-The Biblical archaeological record
-The Jesus of Faith vs. the Jesus of History
-Did Jesus claim to be God and if he did, was he crazy or...
-The so-called empty Tomb of Christ

And we can compare the Biblical record on the above agaist the myth of your choosing. Or, submit your own starting point. Let me know what interests you most. A bit of warning, I'm pretty busy but will do my best to respond to you in a timely manner.

Regards,
BGiC

Demigawd

Any three of the above is fine with me, as long as the first is included. Then I shall respond with my stance on comparative mythology. Hopefully, we can have a good discussion, and perhaps learn a thing or three from each other.

Cross Examiner

Asha'man,

What is convincing? What is this unconvincing evidence you have seen?

All testimony, even eye-witness testimony is to be subjective. Personally verify? Like throwing a ball in the air to prove what goes up will come down? So God only needs to show up on your doorstep to believe? Such a soft heart! God tends not to reveal himself to convinced minds. Do you doubt at all you might be wrong?

Are you unaware of another option to atheism?

I was explaining that God leaves us ignorant to preserve free will? You sure about that?

So you are not ignorant to the danger you face?

You can't choose between the presence of God and the separation from God?

Are you ignorant of your options?

You can choose to be apart from God. What is the problem with that? People do it all the time.

So theists invented the notions of free will and omniscience ad hoc? Really? Actually, the Biblical basis for both omniscience and free will greatly prexisted any perceived skeptical dilemma between the two--so such ideas were not "invented as an excuse for why God’s plan seems so screwed up."

Pharaoh hardened his own heart the first six plagues.

Did I? Read carefully: "After the sixth, he begins to doubt himself and believe that God indeed was and was with Moses"

Were the Egyptians innocent? Or were they brutally opressing their slaves? Also, might there be a greater good for allowing judgement? How can you judge with any certainty from your limited view?

How do you know this is not Him now ? What will you say before God if the Bible is right and you give an account for the knowledge of God you were given? All are judged fairly.

Did He never communicate with you? How do you know? It's quite risky to rule out that He doesn't communicate with you. Are you even listening for Him?

Often times God speaks through people. Ever talked to a Christian? Yes? You may be culpable for something then.

When you look for me with all your heart, you will find me. Jeremiah 29:13 (NIV)

Are you looking with all your heart? Are you listening? Are you seeking? Don't know how? Ask somebody. You do have some responsibility in all this.

Regards,
BGiC

Asha'man

I have seen nothing but smoke and mirrors, lies and fairytales, myths and superstitions, claims and assertions.
I have no doubts, because people like you can offer nothing but words and insinuations. If you had anything real to offer, you would. Since you offer nothing, you clearly have nothing.
I am aware of self-delusion. Is that a viable option?
Are you ignorant of the dangers of the grue under your bed? The goblin in your closet? Are you afraid that your soul will depart your body when you sneeze? I have no fear of superstition or myth, fairy tales cannot harm me.

But do you have anything real to offer me, or just more meaningless questions? I challenged you to provide real evidence, and you ignore it. Shooting blanks?
There are no options. There is reality, and there is myth. There is reason, and there is self deception. I don’t really see any choice there.
If all are judged fairly, then I have nothing to worry about. On the other hand, if the OT is any sign, then fair judgment will be nowhere to be seen. I will not bow down to a tyrant, imaginary or real.
I listened for two decades. He said nothing. If he had any interest in talking, he was too scared to talk to me. If he attempted to say anything, he was too feeble to make himself heard. What type of incompetent is he?
Bullshit. If he has something to say to me, he can do it in person.
Again, bullshit. Blatantly untrue. I looked as hard as it is possible to look, and found nothing. If your God exists, then he abandoned me. You are just trying to make excuses, to shift the blame. If God wants to talk to me, he had his chance. If he still wants to, he knows where to find me.
Again, you offer nothing. Nothing. You try to blame me, but I know that I am blameless. I looked, I listened. God hid like a coward. What type of caring God is this?

You play the same old tune, the one that every theist plays when confronted with an atheist. “You just aren’t listening.” It’s all crap. You can’t accept the fact that your God isn’t what you claim he is, so you have to blame the atheist. However, I see through your pathetic attempts. You have nothing to offer, no evidence at all. You want to plant doubt in my mind, make me fear being wrong, make me want to believe enough to delude myself. But in the end, you still offer nothing.

McFish

I postulate that if any or all of the above were to happen, you would still believe.

1. Christ's bones...who would be able to 'prove' this to a believer? Who among believers that became convinced would not be able to manipulate the scriptures to explain it away?

2. "Real" AI. Again, how do you 'prove' it? I personally believe that it will one day be possible to recreate human brain function in an inorganic medium...I believe we are basically chemical/biological machines already.

3. "Authentic" documentation? If the resurrection myth wasn't even established in the time of Caiphus, why would he have bothered to write about the "hoax"? How many people disputed Mohammed rising into heaven at the time it 'happened'? Any such documentation would have been tossed at the time because it was a non-issue. If twenty people believe something, nobody gives a damn. Certainly, no one writes a well-documented dissertation to dispute it.

4. Only people believing in the legend bothered to record information. You don't find 'evidence' for King Arthur being an immoral man too often, do you? Perhaps he's too recent, there may indeed still be such evidence for King Arthur. I personally don't find the biblical record of Abraham to be an incredibly moral character. Having children with slaves that feel the need to run away and face near-certain death in the wilderness...

5. You are asking us to prove the non-existence of what is ostensibly a historical figure? You must be kidding me...can you disprove Joe the bum of Ephesus in the year 23 AD?

6. This could happen. Unfortunately it will be explained away if it does. There are indeed xians that currently espouse the theory that alien abductions do indeed occur, and that they are actually evidence of a demonic conspiracy to explain away a pre-tribulation rapture scenario. So, I guess I'm hoping E.T. lands...doesn't seem too tough, certainly not as tough as an omnipotent god showing as much as a 1% effort to convince us he exists. (You've never read about Gideon and the fleece?)

7. I have high hopes for this one in my lifetime at least. Not that it will prove anything to anyone (including yourself) in any religious context.

8. How about showing brain tumors can take it away? (Already happened. Not that I can 'prove' that, being that the conscience is unprovable in the first place, being a simple reflection of societal mores in a persons character.)

9. How do you prove a conscience...this stuff is pure genius! My dog looks guilty when he's doing 'bad' things even if he doesn't know I'm watching. Unprovable either way, just like GOD! Oh, wait, he's only provable. One snap of his finger at the belief switch and we'll all KNOW he's real.

10. How do you define life? Do you mean carbon based life? Do you mean DNA based life? Do you mean self replicating structures? Does your definition manage to exclude fire and include silicon based life? How would someone prove 'life' to you? This reminds me of the 'life' sensor in "Event Horizon"...a truly horrible movie.

11. What do you mean by ressurrection of a corpse. A dead body is a corpse until an EMT uses CPR to 'resurrect' it. This is eminently provable. I guess we must quibble about what it means to be 'dead' or 'alive' or a 'corpse' at this point. You are hysterical.

emur

quote:
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Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
Are you looking with all your heart? Are you listening? Are you seeking? Don't know how? Ask somebody. You do have some responsibility in all this.
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God is really playing hard to get isn't he? It reminds me of the game of hide and seek. God is over there! No, he's over there! You are both wrong, see, he's back over this other way!

All this from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being? Can't you see this is just a human construct? I'm sure if God wants to contact someone, he is quite capable of it without all of these games.

Mel

Asha'man

Well put, emur.

If God is trying to contact me, he is failing. Omnipotent beings don't fail.