Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 01-22-2002, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nohweh:


How does a true Christian live Helen?

That's a good question, Nohweh!

I would say that a true Christian ought to be characterized by 'the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit in growing measure, which is described this way in Galatians 5:22-23:

Quote:

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

So, how a true Christian would live is how someone with those character qualities lives...

Here's another similar list from 2 Peter 1:5-8:

Quote:

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That same passage goes on to say (v9):

Quote:

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

The author didn't say that someone not having those qualities is not a Christian but rather, he/she is a Christian who's forgotten what they ought to remember.

So, not having them doesn't mean someone is not a Christian at all.

But a significant ongoing lack of such qualities does indicate something is seriously amiss, according to the consensus of New Testament writings.

Christians disagree as to what extent not having the above - not living as one who has the above - would prove someone to be not a 'true' Christian.

It's maybe like someone who claims to be on a weight-loss diet and yet is getting heavier. What is going on? Have they misunderstood the diet instructions? Are they deceiving themselves over how much they eat? Has in fact their weight gain slowed which is at least an improvement although not where they'd like to be, yet? Someone who claims to be a Christian and yet continually acts in ways showing themselves to lack the character qualities listed above, ought to make one wonder in the same way as the aforementioned person who is supposedly on a weight-loss diet but is gaining.

Thanks for the question Nohweh

. Did my answer make any sense to you?

love
Helen

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

kwigibo · 01-22-2002, 02:23 AM

As much as u feel u should keep the label, i think you're beyond christianity, Helen, as you are better off relying on yourself, you are above christianity, and already possess any virtues christianity could offer. I don't believe you're a christian, i believe you're Helen.

HelenM · 01-22-2002, 02:42 AM

Thanks for your comments, kwigibo.

I can't deny that I am Helen LOL. I might be 'beyond' something but was that really 'Christianity' anyway?

I hope I will never be 'beyond' desiring the character qualities I quoted in my last post!

love
Helen

kwigibo · 01-22-2002, 02:49 AM

yes, but is religion a requirement for any of those character qualities. Those passages you quoted were flawed, and i don't want u to dismiss the whole message because of those flaws, just that your adoption of those good qualities does not in anyway have to be attributed to those messages. I know for a fact that u yourself are perfectly capable of devising superior guidelines for a good life.

kwigibo · 01-22-2002, 02:54 AM

oh, and therefore you should believe in yourself, Helen. If someone asks you what u r, what else should u have to say other than u r u. I myself only call myself an atheist in response to people who assume otherwise. but if people ask me what i am, my answer should and will be, adam

HelenM · 01-22-2002, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kwigibo:
yes, but is religion a requirement for any of those character qualities.

If I took the lists and went down them one by one I expect that, with some thought, I could name a non-religious person in whom I've seen each one of them. Does that answer your question?

Those passages you quoted were flawed

Please tell me more. I am really interested to read specifically how you think they are flawed. I will respect what you say even if I don't agree.

and i don't want u to dismiss the whole message because of those flaws

That's great because a lot of people find it hard to take what they see as a mixed message and be willing to receive what's good and set aside what isn't.

just that your adoption of those good qualities does not in anyway have to be attributed to those messages.

In my case I'm sure the passages had a lot to do with it but I'm assuming by 'your' you were being general rather than literally meaning just me!

I know for a fact that u yourself are perfectly capable of devising superior guidelines for a good life.

It's kind of you to say so but everything I know came from somewhere else, originally

. If I can it's only because I listened to other people and read books and learned from them and my experiences. And maybe from God

. But I'm not pushing you to acknowledge or accept that

oh, and therefore you should believe in yourself, Helen.

There's a verse I like in Romans which is what I try to do: essentially Romans 12:5 says to think of yourself appropriately.

In general I believe in people. Because of my mental illness and various difficult relational experiences it is not always easy to believe in myself. But I try to have an opinion of myself which is as accurate as possible!

If someone asks you what u r, what else should u have to say other than u r u. I myself only call myself an atheist in response to people who assume otherwise. but if people ask me what i am, my answer should and will be, adam

Oooooh, I love when people tell me their real names!!!

Thanks! Nice name.

I agree with you in not being enthusiastic about 'labels'. Figure that when I was labelled mentally ill I liked them less than ever! But they can be useful ways of conveying information and some people will probably always insist on categorizing us by 'labels'.

Thanks for your comments, Adam

love
Helen

Nohweh · 01-22-2002, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:

Thanks for the question Nohweh

. Did my answer make any sense to you?

love
Helen

Everything except the biblical bits Helen

It is a pity that more Christians don't actually live according to the tenets that you have described.

Thankyou for your sincere and thoughtful reply. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

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01-22-2002, 02:23 AM	#12
kwigibo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia Posts: 5,814	As much as u feel u should keep the label, i think you're beyond christianity, Helen, as you are better off relying on yourself, you are above christianity, and already possess any virtues christianity could offer. I don't believe you're a christian, i believe you're Helen.

01-22-2002, 02:42 AM	#13
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Thanks for your comments, kwigibo. I can't deny that I am Helen LOL. I might be 'beyond' something but was that really 'Christianity' anyway? I hope I will never be 'beyond' desiring the character qualities I quoted in my last post! love Helen

01-22-2002, 02:49 AM	#14
kwigibo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia Posts: 5,814	yes, but is religion a requirement for any of those character qualities. Those passages you quoted were flawed, and i don't want u to dismiss the whole message because of those flaws, just that your adoption of those good qualities does not in anyway have to be attributed to those messages. I know for a fact that u yourself are perfectly capable of devising superior guidelines for a good life.

01-22-2002, 02:54 AM	#15
kwigibo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia Posts: 5,814	oh, and therefore you should believe in yourself, Helen. If someone asks you what u r, what else should u have to say other than u r u. I myself only call myself an atheist in response to people who assume otherwise. but if people ask me what i am, my answer should and will be, adam

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