Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeElliott · 01-01-2003, 10:22 AM

If I could, I would like to address the issue of the
ongoing debate between atheists and Christians. I am
what most would describe as a fundamentalist Christian.
However, this does not mean that I believe the Bible is
the law book that Christians must live by. I believe that
the Bible simply gives us some sort of record as to how
God worked in the first century Church.

This actually leads me to the first point I would like
to address. I know that there are many issues that
divide atheists and Christians, but I will only deal with
a few here. First, it seems as if many atheists ask
Christians how we can show that we are any different
in our actions than anyone else. It is pointed out that
most Christians don't seem to really believe in what
they say, because their actions aren't consistent with
how the Bible says Christians should live. This is
absolutely true. Most professing Christians do not live
the life. Why? Because they practice a religion. They
attempt to live according to the teachings in the Bible
instead of coming to Christ, who is who the Bible is
talking about in the first place. True Christian belief is
not about living according to some rules written on the
pages of the Bible. True Christians are supposed to be
born anew into the Lord. We are to be indwelt with a
new Spirit that should transform us into new creatures
who walk as Christ did, and truly stand apart from the
world as unique.

You may ask if I walk this way. Not at this time,
no, I do not, at least not fully. But at least I am honest
about it. I understand fully how infuriating it must be to
hear Christians making excuses as to why they don't
live up to the standard that the Bible describes. Or some
may even claim that they are living that way, yet they
can offer no real evidence that they do.

OK, why am I not walking that way? Because
the power to live that way can only come when all
of the religious garbage, the rules and regulations,
that established Christianity has covered the truth with
can be removed. I have grown up with so many
preconceived notions of what being a Christian is
really about that it is taking some time to disabuse
myself of all of it.

This brings me to another point. Many atheists
believe that Christians have just been programmed
to believe what we believe through years of growing
up around this stuff. But you see, I have gone against
what was programmed into me. There are hardly any
Christians who believe the things I believe. Then there
are atheists on the other side who are opposed to what
I believe. Then there are the just everyday unbelievers.
I have hardly just gone along with the ignorant masses
as some sheep to the slaughter. I may be wrong about
what I believe, but you can't really accuse me of getting
here by just going with the crowd and not thinking for myself.

The next point is the issue of proof. This is the point
where there can be no resolution. You see, I just believe.
I can offer numerous pieces of evidence as to why I believe, but
none would meet your criteria. My belief is as tangible to
me as the things you believe. I applaud critical thinking, but
there is a point that I believe many of you have crossed. You
have become so "wise" that you have become a slave
to what you can "prove." You will never find God this way.
You demand proof, He says to have faith. Sure there should
be some proof, such as Christians who actually live as they
should. But God will never submit to your standards of having
to absolutely prove himself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof.
But how much proof do you have of everything you believe.
Have you conducted every single experiment? Have you been
present for every event to ever happen in history? Have you
personally visited every place that we have sent space craft
to? I know that we do have evidence for much that science says
is true. Don't use the old worn out quip about my car starting
as proof of everything that science says. I am not discounting
science. I simply make the observation that we all have to take
some things with a certain amount of faith.

Joe Elliott
http://members.aol.com/joe4jesus/index.htm

Brian63 · 01-01-2003, 11:02 AM

Welcome to the SecWeb Joe!

You may want to consider posting an introduction of yourself in our Welcome Forum, located just a bit south of this forum.

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeElliott
I applaud critical thinking, but
there is a point that I believe many of you have crossed. You
have become so "wise" that you have become a slave
to what you can "prove." You will never find God this way.
You demand proof, He says to have faith.

This doesn't really have any persuasive power to an atheist though. An atheist does not believe that there is a God that says "You must have faith." All I hear is you personally (supposedly speaking on behalf of God) telling me that. If God wants to tell me that directly, he has my address. In the meantime, I doubt His existence.

If I should believe things without having proof (or even evidence), on what basis should I discern true statements from false statements? There is also no proof that there is a 40,000 ton invisible dragon sitting on top of my computer at the moment. Do you think I should I believe in that as well?

What if my rooommate came in and told me that this dragon told her that I am asking too much when I ask for evidence of the dragon's existence. The dragon told her to tell me that I should just believe "on faith," because that's what the dragon is asking for. Do you think I should believe in that as well?

If not, then hopefully you have an understanding of why some of us are skeptical of claims of supernatural superdeities watching over our every move and threatening with us eternal torment for being skeptical of His existence by using the mental tools that He gave us (but apparently intended for us not to use).

In short: Do you believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

Brian

xeren · 01-01-2003, 11:13 AM

I suspect this is just a cut and paste from somewhere else, but i'll bite...

Here's a little definition that you might need repeated in order to clarify things:

FAITH: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

You have faith in your god. You believe in him, though you have no good evidence.

Contrast that with...

Science, which is the discovery of things through evidence. It is a tried-and true method that continues to provide answers, always with the reasons and evidence to support them. I don't have faith that science works, i know that it works.

On the other hand, your religion only provides one answer: "Goddidit!" and, as usual, offers no evidence for why we should believe such a ridiculous claim.

Quote:

I simply make the observation that we all have to take some things with a certain amount of faith.

Believing in god takes faith, while "believing" in science takes none.

Eudaimonist · 01-01-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeElliott
This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof.
But how much proof do you have of everything you believe.

Enough justification, in direct proportion to the importance of the belief to my life. Some matters are so important to me that they require extensive proof. Others, less crucial, require mere tentative trust in someone else's opinion.

Quote:

Have you conducted every single experiment?

Not necessary. Scientists conduct experiments that are well peer-reviewed, which is sufficient for a high degree of confidence on my part. I trust the method of science, which is an epistemologically justifiable means of acquiring knowledge, and has the advantage of being self-correcting as well.

Quote:

I simply make the observation that we all have to take
some things with a certain amount of faith.

No, not faith. Trust in other people's observations. As long as people can justify their beliefs based on observations that are, at least in principle, reproducable, there is a compelling reason to trust the information as true, or likely true. When Christians speak of faith, they are clearly talking about beliefs that are far less empirical in origin.

Mageth · 01-01-2003, 11:47 AM

The next point is the issue of proof. This is the point
where there can be no resolution. You see, I just believe.
I can offer numerous pieces of evidence as to why I believe, but
none would meet your criteria.
...
This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof.
But how much proof do you have of everything you believe.

Proof is for Mathematicians; I don't seek proof, I seek evidence, evaluate the evidence, and make a judgment on what to accept or not accept as valid based upon the evaluation. New evidence may cause me to re-evaluate a validity judgment.

Lots of theists come here presenting evidence (some even claim to have "proof"), but none I've seen so far is convincing, either by itself or taken collectively. As an example, your assertion that "Christians who actually live as they should" is evidence of, what, god's existence? What about people of other religions (Buddhism, Hiduism, Islam) and even non-religious people like me who "live as they should?" Are christians that don't live as they should evidence of god's non-existence?

HelenM · 01-01-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeElliott
If I could, I would like to address the issue of the
ongoing debate between atheists and Christians.

Hi Joe,

You certainly can, but I suspect your post might get moved to another forum here since this particular one is supposed to be specifically for debating the existence of God.

take care
Helen

cricket · 01-01-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Many atheists believe that Christians have just been programmed to believe what we believe through years of growing up around this stuff.

I'm one of the many atheists who believe that.

I see you don't worship Allah or Odin or Zeus or any of the other gods and goddesses. Why not?

Maybe because you grew up in a culture with a strong Christian influence? No? Did you research all the religions of the world before you made a decision? If you did you're one of the few.

The best way to predict any person's religion is to ask -- what is the religion in their culture? What is the religion of their parents, neighbors, friends? Find out the answer, and it will be the likeliest guess as to the religion that person will choose.

Do you deny this?

Why didn't you choose one of the other religions? Why Christianity?

Selsaral · 01-02-2003, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeElliott
The next point is the issue of proof. This is the point
where there can be no resolution. You see, I just believe.
I can offer numerous pieces of evidence as to why I believe, but
none would meet your criteria. My belief is as tangible to
me as the things you believe. I applaud critical thinking, but
there is a point that I believe many of you have crossed. You
have become so "wise" that you have become a slave
to what you can "prove." You will never find God this way.
You demand proof, He says to have faith. Sure there should
be some proof, such as Christians who actually live as they
should. But God will never submit to your standards of having
to absolutely prove himself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof.
But how much proof do you have of everything you believe.
Have you conducted every single experiment? Have you been
present for every event to ever happen in history? Have you
personally visited every place that we have sent space craft
to? I know that we do have evidence for much that science says
is true. Don't use the old worn out quip about my car starting
as proof of everything that science says. I am not discounting
science. I simply make the observation that we all have to take
some things with a certain amount of faith.

Joe Elliott
http://members.aol.com/joe4jesus/index.htm

But this is the whole point. The most important thing for the christian god is for humans to believe in his existence, not to do good things or follow some particular code (those come afterwards). But christianity is no more convincing than any other religion. Everyone claims god loves everyone, and wants everyone to go to heaven, but then he makes sure that his religion is buried under all the other religions in the world and is no more pursuasive than any other religion. He says he is going to torment us for eternity (or whatever other thing your particular sect has to say about it) simply for not believing, but he has specifically made it impossible to believe in him. What, he was too busy placing all those fossils to confuse us that he couldn't place a single, convincing piece of evidence? He couldn't speak to me even once? If god is going to torment you for eternity for not believing in his existence, then specifically obfuscates his religion under a pile of other similar ones and refuses to ever make the religion credible, he is a twisted bastard. I mean it isn't even SLIGHTLY more credible than Islam, or Hinduism, or Scientology even. Those religions make thousands or millions of converts based on 'faith'. The same thing that motivates a christian to dismiss hinduism is the exact same thing that motivates a hindu to dismiss christianity. It isn't atheists who demand evidence and who believe in science that are dimissing christianity, it's all those hindus and muslims and druids etc. The exact same feature of human nature that makes people devout christians makes people devout hindus. If christianity were even slightly more credible than all those 'false' religions, then there might be some credibility to the whole setup. But it isn't. And god not only blames the hindus (and muslims, and me) for it, he is going to punish us all for eternity for it. Fabulous.

Keith Russell · 01-02-2003, 07:47 AM

Joe:

I believe what I believe only to the extent that it is supported by evidence. Belief, for me, is not an either/or, but a continuum.

More evidence leads to stronger belief, less evidence, to less belief.

Where there is no evidence, no belief is rationally possible.

Keith.

Uni-Universe · 01-02-2003, 08:14 AM

Atheists require proof that there is a God. God is defined differently by many different religions. Where is the proof? "Show the proof," atheists keep saying.

The Proof is existence. The Proof is life. The Proof is your life.

It is proof that there is a force behind the Universe and existence. Humans may disagree with the nature of the force but who can deny that there is a force? God is the common name for the force. I don't believe any human being on the planet can claim to know enough about the Universe and existence to deny that such a force (however it is defined) exists.

I believe most of the atheists argument against the existence of God has to do with the Christian definition of what "God" is.

Just my view.

01-01-2003, 10:22 AM	#1
JoeElliott Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NC Posts: 20	A Christian's thoughts If I could, I would like to address the issue of the ongoing debate between atheists and Christians. I am what most would describe as a fundamentalist Christian. However, this does not mean that I believe the Bible is the law book that Christians must live by. I believe that the Bible simply gives us some sort of record as to how God worked in the first century Church. This actually leads me to the first point I would like to address. I know that there are many issues that divide atheists and Christians, but I will only deal with a few here. First, it seems as if many atheists ask Christians how we can show that we are any different in our actions than anyone else. It is pointed out that most Christians don't seem to really believe in what they say, because their actions aren't consistent with how the Bible says Christians should live. This is absolutely true. Most professing Christians do not live the life. Why? Because they practice a religion. They attempt to live according to the teachings in the Bible instead of coming to Christ, who is who the Bible is talking about in the first place. True Christian belief is not about living according to some rules written on the pages of the Bible. True Christians are supposed to be born anew into the Lord. We are to be indwelt with a new Spirit that should transform us into new creatures who walk as Christ did, and truly stand apart from the world as unique. You may ask if I walk this way. Not at this time, no, I do not, at least not fully. But at least I am honest about it. I understand fully how infuriating it must be to hear Christians making excuses as to why they don't live up to the standard that the Bible describes. Or some may even claim that they are living that way, yet they can offer no real evidence that they do. OK, why am I not walking that way? Because the power to live that way can only come when all of the religious garbage, the rules and regulations, that established Christianity has covered the truth with can be removed. I have grown up with so many preconceived notions of what being a Christian is really about that it is taking some time to disabuse myself of all of it. This brings me to another point. Many atheists believe that Christians have just been programmed to believe what we believe through years of growing up around this stuff. But you see, I have gone against what was programmed into me. There are hardly any Christians who believe the things I believe. Then there are atheists on the other side who are opposed to what I believe. Then there are the just everyday unbelievers. I have hardly just gone along with the ignorant masses as some sheep to the slaughter. I may be wrong about what I believe, but you can't really accuse me of getting here by just going with the crowd and not thinking for myself. The next point is the issue of proof. This is the point where there can be no resolution. You see, I just believe. I can offer numerous pieces of evidence as to why I believe, but none would meet your criteria. My belief is as tangible to me as the things you believe. I applaud critical thinking, but there is a point that I believe many of you have crossed. You have become so "wise" that you have become a slave to what you can "prove." You will never find God this way. You demand proof, He says to have faith. Sure there should be some proof, such as Christians who actually live as they should. But God will never submit to your standards of having to absolutely prove himself beyond a shadow of a doubt. This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof. But how much proof do you have of everything you believe. Have you conducted every single experiment? Have you been present for every event to ever happen in history? Have you personally visited every place that we have sent space craft to? I know that we do have evidence for much that science says is true. Don't use the old worn out quip about my car starting as proof of everything that science says. I am not discounting science. I simply make the observation that we all have to take some things with a certain amount of faith. Joe Elliott http://members.aol.com/joe4jesus/index.htm

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01-01-2003, 11:47 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The next point is the issue of proof. This is the point where there can be no resolution. You see, I just believe. I can offer numerous pieces of evidence as to why I believe, but none would meet your criteria. ... This brings me to my last point. You speak of proof. But how much proof do you have of everything you believe. Proof is for Mathematicians; I don't seek proof, I seek evidence, evaluate the evidence, and make a judgment on what to accept or not accept as valid based upon the evaluation. New evidence may cause me to re-evaluate a validity judgment. Lots of theists come here presenting evidence (some even claim to have "proof"), but none I've seen so far is convincing, either by itself or taken collectively. As an example, your assertion that "Christians who actually live as they should" is evidence of, what, god's existence? What about people of other religions (Buddhism, Hiduism, Islam) and even non-religious people like me who "live as they should?" Are christians that don't live as they should evidence of god's non-existence?

01-02-2003, 07:47 AM	#9
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Joe: I believe what I believe only to the extent that it is supported by evidence. Belief, for me, is not an either/or, but a continuum. More evidence leads to stronger belief, less evidence, to less belief. Where there is no evidence, no belief is rationally possible. Keith.

01-02-2003, 08:14 AM	#10
Uni-Universe Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth/USA Posts: 28	Atheists require proof that there is a God. God is defined differently by many different religions. Where is the proof? "Show the proof," atheists keep saying. The Proof is existence. The Proof is life. The Proof is your life. It is proof that there is a force behind the Universe and existence. Humans may disagree with the nature of the force but who can deny that there is a force? God is the common name for the force. I don't believe any human being on the planet can claim to know enough about the Universe and existence to deny that such a force (however it is defined) exists. I believe most of the atheists argument against the existence of God has to do with the Christian definition of what "God" is. Just my view.

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