Celsus

Hi all,

There are plenty of strange things written in the Bible, and I haven't quite got my head around several of these. Perhaps some more learned people may be able to help... Theists and non-theists welcome to answer, but no cheapshots please.

John 3:13
"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Is this exactly what it says? Could anyone give me any background into what Jesus might be trying to say? Otherwise it seems too easy to point out Enoch and Elijah...

2 Timothy 2:17-18
"and their talk will eat its way like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. They are upsetting the faith of some."

Another verse that seems a dead obvious contradiction, but I'm sure there must be something I've missed, otherwise this is too easy.

Now some general questions:

1. Are there some websites that would detail the differences between Pauline, Petrine, Johannine and Jamesian Christianity?

2. Which Pauline epistles are considered genuine?

3. I can't seem to find any apocryphal references to purgatory, but I'm sure they are there. Anyone with a reference?

4. Is there any other information on Apollos? (1 Corinthians 3) Is he significant in the early church for example?

5. Is Jesus Justus in Colossians 4:11 significant?

6. Don't you love Daniel 14? (Bel and the Dragon)

Right, any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Plebe

Get your disks out or have lots of paper to print the materials here as you go, the below is a general selection I have handy in my computer to draw from and share that I have found useful in my studies as well.
Yes, the Bible has some strange things in it, the first article link discusses Apollo vs. Jesus and has scholarly information following the parable story of the Greek worshipper of Apollo who has traveled in time to attend what sounds like a Catholic Mass.
Peter Kirby has some information in the Early Christian writings portion of his site at <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/</a> that may help you with your question about Pauline vs. other forms of Christianity and he may be able to help you with those questions. He is a moderator on these forums so feel free to email him.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html</a> The Truth about Jesus

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml</a> Forgery in Christianity

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm</a> Jesus and the Jewish Resistance this explains many of the inconsistencies and illogic of the NT

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/index.shtml</a> Did Jesus really Live? And “The Heart of the Bible.”

<a href="http://www.christianism.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianism.com/index.html</a> Years of Research and Scholarship

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/critbias.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/critbias.html</a> Critique of New Testament Reliability and “Bias” in NT development

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/index.shtml</a> More from James Still

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/index.shtml</a> A number of articles re: Theology both Old and New Testament

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/index.shtml</a> Old Testament Life and Literature

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/index.shtml</a> Robert Price

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Chapter13.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Chapter13.html</a> Miracles to Medicine a small history of Medicine

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/messiahgate.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/messiahgate.html</a> Messiahgate a Tale of Murder and Deception

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Plebe ]</p>

Radorth

If you are truly interested in all iterpretations and views, buy a couple of commentaries instead of shouting things like "Amen" in infidels.org's "library."

Most commentaries will agree on the answers to your "contradictions" so I won't recommend any.

Radorth

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Celsus

Thank you Radorth. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why I should buy a commentary if they're just going to agree with me? I would rather you told me what you thought of them yourself than you making a little wisecrack. Or would you like to tell me what your commentary has to say about the verses?

Joel

CX

I don't think Radorth is asserting that commentaries will agree with you, but rather that they agree with eachother (the verses in question are not all that controversial or theologically dense). I second his suggestion. One cannot reasonably study the NT looking only at websites and perhaps popular press that seeks to refute it. You should also be familiar with the mainstream opinion of biblical scholars (not apologists). The Anchor Bible Dictionary series is quite good. I also always recommend someone pick up a good intro text like "History and Theology of the New Testament Writings" by Udo Schnelle.

Incidentally, if you want to engage debate perhaps you could outline why the passages you identified are contradictory rather than just asserting that such is "obvious".

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]</p>

CX

Actually no. It says:

John 3:13 (NA27)
KAI OUDEIS ANABEBHKEN EIS TON OURANON EI MH hO EK TOU OURANOU KATABAS, hO hUIOS TON ANQROPOU


The translation of the greek, however is pretty much as translated above. The tenses of the main verbs (ANABEBHKEN & KATABAS) agree with the English rendering you cited.

That being said, the question is not, "What did Jesus mean," since we have no way of knowing whether these are his words or the evangelist's, but rather what is the intended meaning of the verse? That is a difficult question to answer. I'll let someone else do the exegesis (or you could read a commentary like was suggested).

Celsus

Show off

I'll be getting my hands on a commentary soon. Would any of you happen to know a decent library in London which has these (other books that have been suggested) and is open to the public? In the meantime, my apologies to Radorth for misconstruing his reply.

Joel

CX

Heh. I gotta make some use of 3 semesters of NT Greek and my copy of NA27. I certainly have no use for it in MBA school.


'Fraid I'm not too familiar with your side of the pond. If you drop by my message board, <a href="http://www.factsforum.org" target="_blank">F.A.C.T.S.</a>, we have several Londoners and other limey bast...er Brits who might be able to help you out. I still strongly recommend picking up Udo Schnelle's intro. It is an invaluable reference for mainstream biblical scholarship.