Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CJD · 07-01-2003, 07:08 AM

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Hochstetler wrote
Regarding the consistancy I mentioned in the virgin/young woman interpretation for those into the double fulfillment scheme, it just makes sense to either consider both Jesus' mother and Mahershalalhashbaz's mother virgins or neither.

Hochstetler, let me reword this. The concept is not so much "double fulfillment" as it is a single prediction fulfilled in the prophet Isaiah's son. The writer who then places Jesus in this prophecy (Saint Matthew) knew full well that the original prophecy had nothing to do with the Messiah, but what he saw in Jesus was the ultimate "Immanuel." It's really that simple. If Matt believed Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, then obviously said Jesus was "God with us" in a more full way than Isaiah's son. Matthew is not saying that this single, specific prognostication uttered centuries before by the prophet actually referred to the man Jesus, he is saying that this man Jesus has come in a way similar to Isaiah's son, denoting a similar theme (i.e., judgment), in a way greater than even Isaiah's son.

This does not require both of the mothers to be virgins. The Hebrew can easily be read: "See that virgin (or young maiden) over there? She will give birth to a son (after having sex with a man--cf. Isa. 8:1ff.)." Quite possibly, Saint Matthew saw Jesus as the greater Immanuel because Jesus was actually born of a virgin. But that is asking far too much, I know.

CJD

Evangelion · 07-01-2003, 08:30 AM

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I see Matthew starting out with a barrage of prophecy fulfillments straight in a row: Bang, Bang, Bang.

*snip*

So do I.

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To me, this is clearly not meant as a poetic reverie, but as a laundry list of fortelling prophetical proofs to follow up the most well-known prophetical proof: the Davidic line demonstrated in the immediately preceeding geneology.

I didn't say that the entire thing is merely a poetic reverie. I agree that the bulk of his narrative constitutes a conscious appeal to OT prophecy, for the purpose of vindicating his Messianic message.

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I understand the concept of saying that something like the Emancipation Proclamation would have been like a call out of Egypt for American slaves. However, the context here is pretty clearly prescience and fulfillment.

Agreed.

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The fact notwithstanding that Immanuel was born over five hundred years earlier, that the "son" called out of Egypt was Israel from slavery, that Rachael was concerned about the nation's bondage, and that the Nazarene prophecy is missing entirely...Matthew's string of prophecies has been convincing enough to millions of people who were ready to take his word for it. I'd say that makes it pretty successful rhetorically.

Absolutely.

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Regarding the consistancy I mentioned in the virgin/young woman interpretation for those into the double fulfillment scheme, it just makes sense to either consider both Jesus' mother and Mahershalalhashbaz's mother virgins or neither.

I see what you are saying. However, one particular aspect of a "dual fulfillment" prophecy is that certain parts are fulfilled at different times.

The promises to David concerning his son, for example, are largely fulfilled by the birth of Solomon and certain aspects of that prophecy refer only to him. Others, however, refer only to Christ.

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