ansarthemystic

A friend of mine once said" we're all worshipping the same god anyway...."

This prompted me to write my thoughts on the difference between christianity and islam.

Everyone knows all of the bloodshed done by christians and muslims in the name of their god. A christian apologetic once said that the difference is that the Qur'an specifically enjoins murder, violence, and even is the root scripture for terrorist activities and suicide bombing, whereas the bible does not.

Islam does not advocate any of those acts. There are many passages that speak of violence but never is a person or group ordered to kill. Muslims are told that they can defend themselves and that they can defend the lives of others and that the have a duty to "fight corruption in the land". No muslim can exceed the limits of Allah in fighting, can only fight if attacked, and must cease fighting if the "enemy ceases to fight. It is this duty to fight corruption that has lead many to committ terrorist acts simply for the reason that everyone has their own personal definition of corruption. Allah's definition is that corruption is evil.

I do not feel like defining evil per say, but I want to say that some muslims' personal definiton of corruption is
" if you are a jew, a christian, an atheist, a non-muslim American or European, a proslelytizer for a religion other than Islam,a pagan,an idolater, a Hindu, or any one who disagrees with what I say Allah says then you are corrupt I must fight against you!. To give you more of an idea of the extremism, since I refuse to be disingenous about the legacy and history of islam, some muslims will tell you," if you are an immodest woman, listen to music, drink alcohol,eat pork,watch television you are corrupt.

However I challenge anyone to find the reason for this behavior and thinking in the Qur'an. You might find it in a Hadith(ask me what that is if you aren't familiar with Islam),but that's a whole differnt story.

The Bible on the other hand, although it also speaks about violence many times,the found in there violence and corruption is a direct result of Biblegod order humans to committ atrocities or committing them itself. Not to defend Christianity, but to be honest, christianity is not about violence, although I can barely see how it accomplished that. The Bible is about violence, though. And my problem seems to be the total differencce between Biblegod and Christiangod. Bible god is evil, yet Christiangod is loving and sent his son, which is really himself to die for us. Yet both testaments are in the same book. And while Jews do not accept the new testament, the christians say that the NT verifies and FULFILLS the OT!

Any questions?

ansarthemystic

this is an original quote by a n orthodox jewish rabbi posted by shottlebop July 19, 2002

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many Christians pose the question, “why don’t you accept Jesus as the messiah?” But to us it is not a simple question of ‘accepting’ or not. Now first of all, before we even get off the ground with our discussion, we must realize that the concept ‘messiah’ seems to mean different things to us. Jews do not believe that the Messiah is a part of G-d, or Divine in any way, more than any other person. No indication of this can be found in the Old Testament, since this is not a Jewish concept. We look only to G-d for our salvation, and when the time comes for Him to bring the anointed king, then it shall happen. But we do not concern ourselves with the messiah’s identity - for he is a person (as we have written, and continue to expound, in the “Countdown to Redemption” column in this publication) and his coming does not change the essence of our relationship with G-d - the most important fact of life there is. We do not accept the notion that Scripture “foretells” that G-d would robe Himself in flesh. We believe that this idea is the very embodiment of idolatry, and we must give our very lives to make a stand against it... as indeed we Jews have always done throughout the ages.
According to the prophets of the Bible, amongst the most basic missions of the messiah are:

to cause all the world to return to G-d and His teachings,

to restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David,

to oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt;

to gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel,

and to reestablish the sanhedrin,

restore the sacrificial system,

as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee.

. . .

We have already written in these pages that we believe that the messiah, sent by G-d Al-mighty, is not G-d, but a human being - but the greatest leader and wisest teacher who ever lived. He will put his extraordinary talents to use to precipitate a worldwide revolution which will bring perfect justice and harmony to humanity. Please understand that several rabbis state that the historical Jesus - not the mangod Christianity made him into - did accomplish a great deal in turning people away from idolatry and towards a more authentic knowledge of G-d. But he did not claim the role which was given him by the early church fathers, nor do these rabbis ascribe any role to him. He has no connection with authentic Jewish thought. For reasons of space, this is not the proper format to enter into a lengthy debate or disputation on every possible Biblical verse - BUT I AM PREPARED TO DO SO - although at Light to the Nations, we prefer to stress that which we share, and unite around what should be our common goal: Greater knowledge of G-d and hastening the Redemption. Nor is this the proper time for me to put forth every aspect of this discussion.

You see this? The OT doe not support the idea of a divine Messiah! The NT does! Orthodox Judaism says that the christian man-god concept is the ultimate idolatry!

Straight Hate

Kathall: -5 points. (for reading the above)

ansarthemystic

What do you mean by that?

Peace and blessings

Walter_Mitty

Deleted, see following message.

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Walter_Mitty

Ansarthemystic:

Reconcile this statement...

There are many passages that speak of violence but never is a person or group ordered to kill.

...with this verse from the Koran

Curious, what book are you reading?

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

ansarthemystic

YOU WROTE:From the Koran:

9:5 And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,
and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert,and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their
way.

The correct translation is in fact:

9:5 So when the sacred months are passed,(slay) the idolaters, wherever you shall find them, and take them captive, besiege them,
and lie in wait for them with every ambush. But if they repent,and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free. And surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.



YOU WROTE: 9:29 Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth...

And the correct translation is:

9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah,or in the Last Day, and who forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the Religion of Truth....

And I have already explained what "fighting in the way of Allah" means.


YOU WROTE: 69:30-37 "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

YOU ALSO WROTE: 76: 4 "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

These two translations you have given are also false, and not found in the Qur'an: And again,not that you will believe it, but the proper way to understand this is that it describes spirtual anguish in terms of physical punishment to make men have somewhat of an understanding. Again this mental anguish is brought on only by the individual as a consequence of "every action has a reaction". Allah does not punish you, you punish yourself.


YOU WROTE: 2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief and worshiping of other gods along with Allah) is worse than killing.

This is properly translated as:

2:191 And (kill) them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out. And persecution[war] is worse than (killing).


YOU WROTE: 19-22: "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concering their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

And again,not that you will believe it, but the proper way to understand this is that it describes spirtual anguish in terms of physical punishment to make men have somewhat of an understanding. Again this mental anguish is brought on by the individual as a consequence of " every action has a reaction". Allah does not punish you, Allah chastises you, and you punish yourself.

Sura: 4, Ayat: 91 quoted in part:

".... then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

You really should have quoted the whole verse to put it into proper context:

Sura: 4, Ayat: 91: You will find others who desire to be secure from you and secure from their own people. Whenever they are made to return to hostility, they are plunged into it. So if they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace and restrain their hands,then seize them and (kill) them wherever you find them. And against these We have given you a clear authority."


Sahih Muslim, 217: "Verily Allah has prescribed proficiency in all things. Thus if you kill, kill well, & if you slaughter, slaughter well. Let each one of you sharpen his blade."

Please do NOT use hadiths as part of you argument. They are the sayings of men!

Now let me explain why I specifically put the words kill and slay in parentheses. In arabic the words "to cause to die" are what should be translated as kill. However the arabic word used in the Qur'an has the connotation of "to prevent from killing". So I assume that the translator assumed that there are few situations where self-defense or the defense of someone else from being murdered do not lead to actually killing that person. Hence the rendering to the arabic" to prevent from killing" is rendered "kill" in that sense;albeit inaccurately. Now the word "slay" means murder, or unjust killing.I truly wonder what is going on in certain translations when the word for "murder" is not used in the verses of the Qur'an where the word "slay" is rendered, but again the word used is "fight"

Secondly the word "Fitnah" means "war or peersecution", and not "disbelief and worshiping of other gods along with Allah" as you have rendered it.Disbelief and worshipping other gods is "kuffar" which means atheists,idolaters, polytheists,hindus,and pagans.This is why war and persecution is worse than preventing killing(even if one is killed accidentally in the process).

So my questions to you are what book are you reading, Do you read and understand Arabic, and why do you use Hadiths? Either you are misleading people, or you are genuinely unaware of what the Qur'an actually says.

Peace and blessings.

Walter_Mitty

Ansarthemystic,

My response is forthcoming and should be up by tonight--Allah willing. Since you're making me work for it there may be a "slight" delay as I construct my argument.



[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Tom Sawyer

Does it really matter what the Koran or Bible actually says about violence?

If some fanatics want to use the fact that infidels aren't worshipping the true God (whatever version they have of Him) to justify the murder of others, they're going to and it doesn't matter if there is some specific passage or another that validates their homicide.

That applies to Christians, Muslims, Hindus, [insert random religion here]. The details of the text and whatever translations you want to make aren't important. They're all just stories anyways and their only relevance is in the interpretations of the people reading them. If they choose to read them to mean love everybody, they'll do so. If they choose to read them to mean kill everybody who disagrees with me, they'll do so. The specifics of the texts themselves are unimportant.

Echo

Slay the idolaters??
Lie in wait for them with every ambush???
Leave their way free if they repent?

Oh yeah, this corrected translation is far more becoming.