Nowhere357

If our decisions are preordained, then in fact we have no decisions to make. But we make decisions. So decisions are not preordained.

Do you deny that we make decisions? Will you decide to post a response?

rainbow walking

rw: Jesus doesn't seem to agree with you WL:

Mark 10:14 _But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Now, granted, he didn't specify babies here, but they are little children...are they not? He also didn't say anything about them believing or following any special religious dogma to be part of the kingdom of God. Just a blanket statement that little children are not hell bound but are part of the kingdom of God. I also do not think scripture referring to being born into sin means you are literally hellbound from birth. (shrug)...seems to me a god with any grace about him at all will extend a period of grace to people long enough for them to demonstrate they understand the difference between right and wrong in some meaningful way beyond just, "Don't touch that...burn baby"

I realize some prominant theologians in the past have taken this theme to a ridiculous conclusion and have fetuses on their way to hell before they're even born, but this just seems plain stupid fundy scare tactics bullshit to me....a condition that seems to plague religious folks quite often. It's a devil I tell ya. The devil made 'em say it.

rainbow walking

Relative to the OP there are some scriptures in both testaments dealing with the subject of man being known, and in some cases, chosen by this god before they were concieved and or born. Of course, nothing I can find dealing with anyone ever being given a choice to be born or not.

I guess the believer sees it as a privilege and a chance to advance to a closer position with this god as sons whereas the unbeliever isn't likely to see it as such an opportunity.

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ephesians 1:4 _According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,


Starting with David who asserts god knew him as he was being formed in the womb, it progresses backwards to god knew Jeremiah before he was concieved and by the time it gets to Paul it has become, god knew us before he created the world.

I think this is where Paul and others got their predestination theology.

It becomes apparent, as you delve into the bible from this perspective, that they had good reason to believe this and so, all I can say is god chooses specific people, (curiously from among the Jews usually), to further his specific aims and the rest of humanity can choose to join him or go to hell. And he also chooses some to send to hell apparently as an example by blinding their eyes to the reality of Jesus identity as evidenced by this:

37 _¶But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 _That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 _Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 _He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 _These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Of course, these are also Jews, Pharisees I believe they were. So I guess if you're not a Jew you have nothing to worry about.

Which doesn't help me in the least.

Kip

Your first sentence is false. Every day, we program robots to make decisions that are predetermined. If a robot is programmed to decide between A and B, and choose B, the robot will make decisions and these decisions are predetermined.

Nowhere357

We program the desisions into the robots. We made the decisions, not the robots. Robots have no minds, I would say.

My first sentence is not false. If our decisions are preordained, then in fact we have no decisions to make.

7thangel

You perfectly make sense to me.

Indeed, even atheists do somehow believe that knowledge just "evolved." And atheists who profess that there is a free will should not believe also of the evolution of man, else they will be in deep deep deep trouble of knowing their purpose of life. Could they "make" a purpose anyway? Just think, nobody creates his/her own brain, right?

But in a world void of free will, what purpose should we talk about........this is actually very absurd.

As for me, God exists. And He had shown unto me that He has a purpose for me to live eternally.

Kip

Thank you for clarifying that. According to your usage of "decision", of course humans do not make decisions, because our choices are determined by antecedent genetic and cultural programming, etc. So I would agree with your argument that, if humans do not possess free will, we do not truly make decisions.

Nowhere357

Here are some of my quotes from this thread:

But we make decisions.
We made the decisions, not the robots.
Our decisions are the result of our application of will (or free will), an ability which arises or emerges as the result of prior causes to our body and brain.

Are you misrepresenting my position on purpose? Why would you CHOOSE to do that?

Here are some other things I said:

Then what will we call the fact that we can try to make decisions based on the choices presented to our minds?
So "will" is the ability to make decisions from the choices we're aware of.
I think it's reasonable to use "free will" to describe our ability to choose - per the definition and per standard usage.
Do you deny that we make decisions?

Exactly what in this are you trying to attack?

Kip

How, exactly, am I misrepresenting your position?

I wrote the following:

Please show me how I have distorted what you originally wrote:

You ask me "what are you attacking"? But I would not say that I am attacking anything. Rather, I am agreeing with what you have written above this paragraph.

Your original argument was thus:

I think this argument form is valid. I originally disputed your first premise. However, now that I understand your usage of the word "decision" and that you deny that robots make decisions, I am willing to grant your first premise but must deny your second. If you can deny that a robot makes decisions, I can deny that people make decisions. I do not know of any reason to think otherwise, do you?

Nowhere357

Here's what I said:
If our decisions are preordained, then in fact we have no decisions to make.

"No decisions to make" means no free will, of course.

This says IF (our decisions are preordained) THEN (we have no free will).

Here is your response:
Now, "we do not truly make decisions" means the same as "our decisions are preordained" (in this context).

This says IF (humans do not possess free will) THEN (our decisions are preordained).

SO my argument was (IF a THEN b); you represented this as (IF b THEN a). Which of course are not the same things. For example IF I'm a collie THEN I'm a dog; but it's not (necessarily) true that IF I'm are a dog, THEN I'm are a collie.

Well okay, although you had my position backwards, I'm not sure what I was fussing about. Maybe I should quit posting at 2am.

P1. If our decisions are preordained, then in fact we have no decisions to make.
P2. But we make decisions.
C. So decisions are not preordained.

I think the way we are using the word "decision" directly implies a consciousness. This is why I'll say robots make no decisions. They follow their programming.

Yes I do. Direct personal experience. Also, general concensus. There is nothing controversial in the notion that people make decisions.

I've asked twice if "you deny people make decisions". You seem to imply that they do not. Is this your position?


Let me jump ahead a bit, and ask: what in your opinion is the cause of subatomic particle decay?