Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elvithriel · 03-17-2003, 11:38 PM

"When an unbeliever dies, he ceases to exist. No more thoughts and feelings. And his flesh will return to dust"

Heh, your in the minority with that view. Although if your right it doesn't matter if I am wrong or not. If there is no God I will cease to exist when I die, if there is a God I will cease to exist when I die. Either way...

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by Magus55
QoS, how about you stop whining about a God you don't even believe in.

Magus, how about you produce some evidence in favor of this god's existence?

Even if he were a torturer ( which hes not, you just love depicting him that way ),

Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm not the one who claimed that this god would inflict a "high degree of suffering" on people in order to make them worship him.

there isn't didly you can do about it. He created you, He made the rules.

In other words, might makes right. Your god is looking more and more like a tyrannical despot.

You abide by them, or get punished.

And boy, does your god love punishing people. He must get as much of a kick out of it as his followers get out of imagining the terrible things that will happen to people who don't toe the line.

If you don't like it, feel free to tell him so at Judgement

If there ever is one, and if you happen to be right about this god. Frankly, both of those two possibilities approach zero, so I don't worry about it.

and see how fast you fall to your knees in humility.

You mean I'll have knees at Judgement?

Oh my word, Magus, I forgot, you didn't know! I was born without legs (and arms, for that matter)! Is your god going to give me knees at Judgement just so that I can fall to them? Wowie!

I have produced evidence, you just don't like it. No amount of evidence would ever convince an atheist because you only look at ways to disprove it. Thats probably why you can't see it, atheists are so hardened to the idea of God, that God just lets you have your way and lets you get even more hardened so you will never see the truth ( just like the Pharoah).

I wasn't the one who said "high degree of suffering" either.

When you're a kid, your parents set rules and what happens when you break them? You get punished. The difference is, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of death. You keep saying He likes watching people suffer. If he did like it, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for you, when by his laws you completely deserve Hell .

Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Even satan will be bowing before God.

lpetrich · 03-18-2003, 06:04 AM

Magus55:
When you're a kid, your parents set rules and what happens when you break them? You get punished.

An expedient that parents resort to because they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

And I am a creator of computer programs, and I NEVER program like that -- I attempt to construct my programs so that they will behave CORRECTLY, rather than let them misbehave and then moan and groan that they do that.

The difference is, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of death. You keep saying He likes watching people suffer.

An omnipotent and omniscient being would be responsible for EVERYTHING that happens, by omission as well as by commission.

Imagine that you are driving and you hit some little kid. You are hauled into court and you offer this defense:

* I did not do anything, because I did not change speed or turn.

* The kid was someplace that he/she did not belong, therefore he/she deserved it.

Will any reasonable court of law accept that defense?

If he did like it, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for you, when by his laws you completely deserve Hell .

Who is also supposed to be God -- God had to sacrifice himself to himself.

Which I consider bull doo-doo.

Treacle Worshipper · 03-18-2003, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Magus55
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Which means that QoS will be fine, because, as she said above, she doesn't have any knees

TW

Queen of Swords · 03-18-2003, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Magus55
I have produced evidence, you just don't like it.

How could I like it without even seeing you present it? Come on, post it here - evidence for the existence of your deity-of-choice.

No amount of evidence would ever convince an atheist because you only look at ways to disprove it.

No amount of evidence. That's exactly what you have, right - a zero amount?

Thats probably why you can't see it, atheists are so hardened to the idea of God, that God just lets you have your way and lets you get even more hardened so you will never see the truth ( just like the Pharoah).

Yes, and then god sends frogs, that we might make cuisses de grenouilles from them, and then god turns water into blood, that we need never donate again (as long as it's O negative) and then god kills all the first-born sons - hey Magus, you're not a first-born male, are you?

I wasn't the one who said "high degree of suffering" either.

Did anyone say you did? But perhaps the person who said this wasn't a True Christian - as the expert on Christianity, what's your take on the "high degree of suffering"?

When you're a kid, your parents set rules and what happens when you break them? You get punished.

Not for eternity. And my brother was never punished instead of me.

The difference is, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of death.

Why? Provide evidence to back up this assertion.

You keep saying He likes watching people suffer. If he did like it, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for you, when by his laws you completely deserve Hell .

If by his laws I "completely deserve Hell", then he is an unjust tyrant who clearly likes the idea of billions of people roasting away. As for sending his son to die for me, he didn't send his son to die for me, he sent his son so that he could have lots of terrified, obsequious followers, too scared of his wrath to use their minds.

Even satan will be bowing before God.

And pulling the rug out from under god's feet as he does so. Whee!

Queen of Swords · 03-18-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Which means that QoS will be fine, because, as she said above, she doesn't have any knees

Did you notice he never addressed this point?

Yoo-hoo, Magus, is god going to give me knees for that one moment when he forces me to bow?

MrDarwin · 03-18-2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sr. Zonules
:banghead: I think that particular argument is quite silly - you assume that atheists are trying to seek god (or did at one time). Athiests try to AVIOD god, and think of ways to live morally and just WITHOUT god. It would be quite strange for a prophesy to put importance on people who either a.) try to falsify such prophesies or b.) don't even care and are not related to such writings at all. Still, someone could write whatever they want about atheists, but it doesn't make them true.

Quite the contrary, from the testimony I've seen from atheists and agnostics who post here, many of them quite consciously sought God, but failed to find him/her/it. Others were quite certain at one time that they had found God, but later decided they were mistaken.

As an agnostic, I continue to seek whatever god(s) there may be--because I want to know the truth about the world around me--but so far I'm coming up empty-handed.

braces_for_impact · 03-18-2003, 08:45 AM

Theists like to whine that they've provided evidence. The point is, they have not. Apparently, some have higher standards for evidence that others. It is there I think the problem lies. An opinion is NOT evidence. An explanation is NOT evidence.

When are theists going to realize this? And more importantly, when are theists going stop insisting you need faith out of one side of their mouth while preaching 'evidence' with the other? If faith is SO incredibly important you had better be careful, because as soon as real evidence comes along faith is no longer required.

As far as this prophecy crap, please realize, there is none. To be a prophecy I want to see a date. That's right I want to see DATES, NAMES, CIRCUMSTANCES. I want SPECIFICS! Nostrodamus can give me vague quatrains that can be interpreted to meet any need for prophecy. So could Jeanne Dixon. So do any other countless religious texts. The bible doesn't even fake prophecy very well compared to some of these.

So what is it? Faith or evidence. You can't have both. I have yet to see any evidence for the existence of god, so it must be faith. But then you would have to admit that you believe simply because you want to. And that seems pretty silly when you come right down to it, doesn't it?

Sr. Zonules · 03-18-2003, 09:45 AM

Mr. Darwin: Although I do think your post is a little weak, I do admit that is an excellent point. And because of your post, I'm inspired to start a new thread about the 'nature' of beliefs of athiests / agnostics (and sim.). (In G. R. D.)

braces_for_impact: I agree with you whole-heartedly. I do think that when you get down to it, religion (because it MUST be entirely based upon faith) IS quite silly. Also - please join me in the above thread, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

As for this thread, first of all, I'd like to take back what I said about avioding God; that isn't really what I was going after anyway. What I really mean is that (many) athiests (and similar) (like myself) (due to their religious expieriences) try to seek a life that has moral and ethical "rightness" without the existance of a higher power. Many philosophers (and theologans, esp.) have based their beliefs and systems based upon the existance of God, and say that man is useless (or in anyway inferior) without him/her/it.

It is "dead" (finals) week for me, so my mind is kinda blank, so I'll have to continue later (esp. in my new thread)

ohh well.

Defiant Heretic · 03-18-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
I have produced evidence

Such as...?

Quote:

No amount of evidence would ever convince an atheist because you only look at ways to disprove it.

Yes we will. And if we can, your evidence isn't any good. If we can't, your case gets somewhat stronger, depending on how conclusive the evidence is.

Quote:

Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

And in 1 Kings 16:11, it says: "he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends." What exactly is your point? You can�t quote the bible in order to prove it.

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03-17-2003, 11:38 PM	#41
Elvithriel Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 127	"When an unbeliever dies, he ceases to exist. No more thoughts and feelings. And his flesh will return to dust" Heh, your in the minority with that view. Although if your right it doesn't matter if I am wrong or not. If there is no God I will cease to exist when I die, if there is a God I will cease to exist when I die. Either way...

03-18-2003, 06:04 AM	#43
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55: When you're a kid, your parents set rules and what happens when you break them? You get punished. An expedient that parents resort to because they are neither omnipotent nor omniscient. And I am a creator of computer programs, and I NEVER program like that -- I attempt to construct my programs so that they will behave CORRECTLY, rather than let them misbehave and then moan and groan that they do that. The difference is, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of death. You keep saying He likes watching people suffer. An omnipotent and omniscient being would be responsible for EVERYTHING that happens, by omission as well as by commission. Imagine that you are driving and you hit some little kid. You are hauled into court and you offer this defense: * I did not do anything, because I did not change speed or turn. * The kid was someplace that he/she did not belong, therefore he/she deserved it. Will any reasonable court of law accept that defense? *If he did like it, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for you, when by his laws you completely deserve Hell* .** Who is also supposed to be God -- God had to sacrifice himself to himself. Which I consider bull doo-doo.

03-18-2003, 07:58 AM	#44
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Originally posted by Magus55 Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Which means that QoS will be fine, because, as she said above, she doesn't have any knees TW

03-18-2003, 08:15 AM	#45
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 I have produced evidence, you just don't like it. How could I like it without even seeing you present it? Come on, post it here - evidence for the existence of your deity-of-choice. No amount of evidence would ever convince an atheist because you only look at ways to disprove it. No amount of evidence. That's exactly what you have, right - a zero amount? Thats probably why you can't see it, atheists are so hardened to the idea of God, that God just lets you have your way and lets you get even more hardened so you will never see the truth ( just like the Pharoah). Yes, and then god sends frogs, that we might make cuisses de grenouilles from them, and then god turns water into blood, that we need never donate again (as long as it's O negative) and then god kills all the first-born sons - hey Magus, you're not a first-born male, are you? I wasn't the one who said "high degree of suffering" either. Did anyone say you did? But perhaps the person who said this wasn't a True Christian - as the expert on Christianity, what's your take on the "high degree of suffering"? When you're a kid, your parents set rules and what happens when you break them? You get punished. Not for eternity. And my brother was never punished instead of me. The difference is, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of death. Why? Provide evidence to back up this assertion. You keep saying He likes watching people suffer. If he did like it, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for you, when by his laws you completely deserve Hell . If by his laws I "completely deserve Hell", then he is an unjust tyrant who clearly likes the idea of billions of people roasting away. As for sending his son to die for me, he didn't send his son to die for me, he sent his son so that he could have lots of terrified, obsequious followers, too scared of his wrath to use their minds. Even satan will be bowing before God. And pulling the rug out from under god's feet as he does so. Whee!

03-18-2003, 08:17 AM	#46
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper Which means that QoS will be fine, because, as she said above, she doesn't have any knees Did you notice he never addressed this point? Yoo-hoo, Magus, is god going to give me knees for that one moment when he forces me to bow?

03-18-2003, 08:45 AM	#48
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Theists like to whine that they've provided evidence. The point is, they have not. Apparently, some have higher standards for evidence that others. It is there I think the problem lies. An opinion is NOT evidence. An explanation is NOT evidence. When are theists going to realize this? And more importantly, when are theists going stop insisting you need faith out of one side of their mouth while preaching 'evidence' with the other? If faith is SO incredibly important you had better be careful, because as soon as real evidence comes along faith is no longer required. As far as this prophecy crap, please realize, there is none. To be a prophecy I want to see a date. That's right I want to see DATES, NAMES, CIRCUMSTANCES. I want SPECIFICS! Nostrodamus can give me vague quatrains that can be interpreted to meet any need for prophecy. So could Jeanne Dixon. So do any other countless religious texts. The bible doesn't even fake prophecy very well compared to some of these. So what is it? Faith or evidence. You can't have both. I have yet to see any evidence for the existence of god, so it must be faith. But then you would have to admit that you believe simply because you want to. And that seems pretty silly when you come right down to it, doesn't it?

03-18-2003, 09:45 AM	#49
Sr. Zonules Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N 47� 11� 14�, W 122� 10� 08� Posts: 82	Mr. Darwin: Although I do think your post is a little weak, I do admit that is an excellent point. And because of your post, I'm inspired to start a new thread about the 'nature' of beliefs of athiests / agnostics (and sim.). (In G. R. D.) braces_for_impact: I agree with you whole-heartedly. I do think that when you get down to it, religion (because it MUST be entirely based upon faith) IS quite silly. Also - please join me in the above thread, I'd like to hear what you have to say. As for this thread, first of all, I'd like to take back what I said about avioding God; that isn't really what I was going after anyway. What I really mean is that (many) athiests (and similar) (like myself) (due to their religious expieriences) try to seek a life that has moral and ethical "rightness" without the existance of a higher power. Many philosophers (and theologans, esp.) have based their beliefs and systems based upon the existance of God, and say that man is useless (or in anyway inferior) without him/her/it. It is "dead" (finals) week for me, so my mind is kinda blank, so I'll have to continue later (esp. in my new thread) ohh well.

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