Mageth

I'm anxiously awaiting some support for your 3-4 million claim, Magus.

Spaz

Messianic Jews are Christians, no more no less, Jewish isn't a nationality it's a profession of religious belief (although many accept it as a nationality, which I don't get). You can be an Israeli Christian, but not a Messianic Jew, that doesn't even make sense. Are Jews of Euopean ancestry related to the hebrews or are they converts? I've read stuff about this that conflicted so I'm wondering which is true.

Magus55

Judaism is a nationality - its something you are born with. You are an Israeli if you are born in Israel, you are a Jew if you are born of a Jewish mother in the line of Abraham. Worshipping the Jewish Messiah does not make me any less Jewish. You have no clue what you are talking about - so stop pretending to understand my faith.

Opera Nut - who says Jews can't worship the Messiah and its an oxymoron? You? Just because alot of Jews don't, because thats what they grew up believing means its automatically wrong? I don't really care about Jews for Jesus and their alleged false claims. A Messianic Jew, is a Jew born of the Abrahamic bloodline, who retains their Jewish roots, but also worships Y'shua as the prophecized Messiah of the Old Testament. Almost all Jews believe in the coming of a Messiah, non Messianic just don't believe Jesus was him. So no, its not an oxymoron because a Messiah is part of the Jewish prophecies. I believe He already came, other Jews don't. It doesn't make me any less Jewish.

Spaz

Is it not possible to convert to judaism? If you can convert to it, it's not a nationality as far as I'm concerned.

Magus55

Judaism is both a nationality and a religion. You can convert to Judaism and by Jewish law, be considered a Jew, but you can't become of Jewish nationality or "ethnicity" without being born into it, no more than a European can be a true Native America without being born one.

Kilgore Trout

"Jews for Vishnu" is an oxymoron, "Jews for Baal" is an oxymoron and "Jews for Jesus" is an oxymoron. You are free to worship as you please, but when you worship a false messiah, you are not a Jew, you are worshipping a false god. One big clue is that you say you worship the messiah. Ask a real Jew and you will know that the Jews are not going to "worship" the messiah when he comes.

The only time Jesus is mentioned in the Torah is Deut 13, where it says how to recognize a false prophet. Jesus taught things that were against the Hebrew god's law. That made him a false prophet. As Deut 13 says, even if that prophet does miracles you are not to follow him, it is just a test from god. You christians can talk all you want about Jesus rising from the dead, and thanks to Deut 13, the ressurection is irrelevant!

The whole point of their messiah is that EVERYONE in the world will recognize him when he comes, not just his "friends". The only "true" messianic prophecies are the ones that will occur during the messianic age.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-3 that people must obey and follow the orders of the teachers of the law. The teachers of the law said Jesus was a false prophet, therefore even Jesus is indirectly admitting he is a false prophet!

When you disregard the Hebrew god's law and worship false gods you are not a Jew.

Opera Nut

So if being Jewish is racial, then why are there black Jews in Ethiopia?? If a woman converts before she has kids, then she and the kids are considered just as Jewish as a person born to it. Converts are specifically mentioned as being valuable in Jewish life, although they do not proselytize.

I hate to have to borrow stuff from other ssites but I am not a biblical scholar to any huge degree. Read this.

QUOTE:

The Jewish Messiah : The Criteria

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".


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First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, wham the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also fallow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

==============ENDQUOTE

QUOTE:
The Jewish Concept of Messiah and
the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.

b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.

b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.




Jesus: "I come not in peace but with a sword".

Jesus never said he was the son of God. He also predicted things that were supposed to happen in his time or his disciples' life time, and they didn't happen.

Messianic Jews are a logical impossibility.
Why is that so hard to understand??

Magus55

Jesus did say He was the son of God.

Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

And are you taking after Mark9950 again, claiming to understand Biblical verses without reading them in context? The verse:


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Is Jesus' transfiguration. He is telling the Apostles of the future end times, and for the people that see the signs of these end times, to keep watch. He said this generation ( that one he is speaking to about watching for the end times signs) shall not pass. In other words, when the end times come - the generation that witnesses it, won't pass till all the signs are fulfilled. It has nothing to do with the Apostles - Jesus was telling them so they could write it down, in order for the generation Jesus was referring to, to know what to look for.


No they aren't - there are millions of them - that makes it a possibility. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean you're right. Jesus said He is the way, the truth and life for EVERYONE, the Jew first, and then the Gentile. The Apostles were Messianic Jews. Messianic Synagogues are all over the world. Messianic Judaism is very real. Don't like them - I don't care. My trust is in Jesus, not an atheist who pretends to know what she is talking about in reference to another person's faith.

WinAce

Speaking of Jews for Jesus, Baal and Vishnu.... Jews-for-Allah.org (and no, it's not a parody)

EstherRose

color=darkblue]Deuteronomy 13
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.[/color]

How exactly does this passage mean Jesus was a false prophet? He didn’t lead people to follow a false God. He led people to recognize the long awaited Messiah, the Son of God. The same God. He repeatedly told them to worship God, the God of Abraham.

Then I guess there are no Jews alive today, for not one of them follows the law to the fullest extant, by your reasoning.