Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 06-25-2003, 09:06 AM

In the thread Explain Revelation in BC&H, agnawstick posted the following:

Quote:

First, I don't really think you should be calling another belief "out there", but that is neither here or there.

Secondly, messianic jews are a small number. No offense to you, but when 1-1000th of 1% of jews or whatever number are messianic and that changes to 3-1000th of 1%... you could argue that you are tripling your numbers, but you are lying with statistics. It takes 5% of the vote in the Presidential election to automatically qualify for the next ballot as a political party. Should we not hold the messianic jews to that same standard? How about a lower standard... 40% of that low number. If just 1 in every 50 jews becomes messianic, than that is an indicator of a mass movement brewing, until then, one can always dream.

to which Magus55 replied:

Quote:

Wrong - according to Adherents.com - in 1998, there were over 1 million messianic Jews worldwide. In 98 it was reported as significantly increasing - so id say its a few million by now. There are 14 million Jews total in the world. Don't know where the heck you got your 3-1000th of 1% number, but Messianic Jews make up at least 1/6th of the Jewish population, if not closer to 25%. Its growing so much, that Israel acknowledged Messianic Judaism, which was forbidden before. So I think we can consider it a mass movement since its a much greater percentage than your 1 in 50.

winstonjen asked:

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Why don't you clear it up for us by telling us how many Jews there are worldwide?

Magus replied:

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huh? I did tell you - 14 million Jews, possibly as much as 25% of those Jews believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

winstonjen replied:

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Sorry. I missed that in your post. So about 3-4 million are Messianic? Do you have a link for that evidence?

to which Magus replied:

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Go to adherents.com, search for Messianic Judaism. It doesn't say 3-4 million, it says over a million in 1998, while significantly increasing - so im guessing its in the 3-4 million range by now. Even if it stayed at 1 million, 1 out of 14 Jews is a huge huge amount compared to agnawsticks 3-1000th of 1% number.

Moderator Celsus then asked them to take it to another thread. I wanted to reply to this, so here we are.

Magus:

I went to adherents.com. They list three different estimates for the number of Messianic Jews worldwide. You listed the highest. The other two are an order of magnitude less than the 1,000,000 you gave - 100,000 and 132,000. The one you listed was not technically "according to adherents.com" - it was quoted from a site linked to by adherents.com, where the only source for that number is "it is estimated".

When reporting such estimates, it's typically considered to be more, um, honest to report the full range of estimates. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just missed the lower estimates.

In addition, I did a little bit of research and found on yasharnet.com:

Quote:

Among the 14 million Jewish people there is a group of perhaps twenty or thirty thousand people [note: this figure is much larger today than when this article was written, the number is well over 100,000 - Ed.], .], born Jews, who believe in the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh and practice Jewish customs and religion. They also believe in Jesus. Some, if not most of them, prefer to call Him by His Jewish name, Yeshua. Although small in number, they are a vocal group, constantly challenging the Jewish spiritual and secular authorities with their presence, demanding recognition as Jews.

Then I found this article. From the article:

Quote:

According to the publication, Reform Judaism, about 10,000 Jews belonged to Hebrew Christian groups, including Messianic Judaism, in 1978. By the mid-1990s, the number swelled to nearly 200,000 members.

Messianic Judaism has been labelled as one of the fastest-growing sects of Judaism � thanks to the passion and involved commitment of believers. Several sources estimate the number of Jews in the U.S. who believe in Yeshua in some way to be close to a million people.

Note the last bit does not claim that those "close to a million people" are Messianic Jews. Nor does it give the sources or how they came to their estimates.

agnawstick's estimate was way low, Magus, but your estimate appears at first glance to be way high. I'll second winstonjen's request that you provide some sources to back up your estimate that 3-4 million of the world's estimated 14 million Jews are Messianic Jews.

emotional · 06-25-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

by Magus:

Its growing so much, that Israel acknowledged Messianic Judaism, which was forbidden before.

I've told Magus on another thread but he won't listen: this is total rubbish. Messianic Judaism is still a banned cult in Israel, and the anti-missionary law, forbidding missionising between religions, still applies and is relevant to Messianic Judaism. The courts in Israel have forcefully ruled that Messianic Judaism and Jews for Jesus are just deceptive names for Christianity.

And I still don't have any acquaintance of mine that changed religion to Messianic Judaism. I have many acquaintances that changed from secular Jews to Orthodox, Torah-observant Jews. Now that is a widespread movement. If Messianic Judaism were just as half as widespread as Magus says it is, I'd have one or two acquaintances who changed to it.

Magus is just using the "inevitable victory" fallacy.

EstherRose · 06-25-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
And I still don't have any acquaintance of mine that changed religion to Messianic Judaism. I have many acquaintances that changed from secular Jews to Orthodox, Torah-observant Jews. Now that is a widespread movement. If Messianic Judaism were just as half as widespread as Magus says it is, I'd have one or two acquaintances who changed to it.
[/B]

Oddly enough, I see the opposite. I've met many Messianic Jews but never any Orthodox Jews. Should I doubt the existence of Orthodox Jews just because I've never met any?

Opera Nut · 06-25-2003, 07:14 PM

Messianic Jews make me ill. It's a front for Christianity and an oxymoron as well.

I have a great deal of respect for the intellectual traditions of Judaism, especially Classical Reform, and I have NO respect for Messianic Jews. They are a fraud and it is sad that they are taking in people.

Magus55 · 06-25-2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Messianic Jews make me ill. It's a front for Christianity and an oxymoron as well.

I have a great deal of respect for the intellectual traditions of Judaism, especially Classical Reform, and I have NO respect for Messianic Jews. They are a fraud and it is sad that they are taking in people.

Thats really ignorant of you. You are such a hypocrite. Atheists always complaining that all the Christians are forcing them to do things they don't want to do, and not respecting their choice of no religion - and then you go right around with your prejudice attitude towards Messianic Jews.

winstonjen · 06-25-2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Oddly enough, I see the opposite. I've met many Messianic Jews but never any Orthodox Jews. Should I doubt the existence of Orthodox Jews just because I've never met any?

Just because you've met a lot does not make them the majority.

I know many people with the blood type AB, yet that is the least common blood type.

Opera Nut · 06-25-2003, 10:30 PM

Magus, I stand by my statements.

We allegedly have freedom of speech in America. It's called the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

As an atheist, I have the right to criticize or approve of ANY religion I want to, to any degree, without exception. Just as a True Christian(TM) has the right to disapprove of ALL other religions, and go around telling other people they are gonna end up as barbecue in Hell.

You have not disproven any of my statements. Jews for Jesus IS an oxymoron. It is a contradiction in terms.

You cannot believe in the messiah of the OT as predicted in Isaiah, and also believe that Jesus in the NT is the same messiah.
It is a logical impossibility.

And as I said, I have a WHOLE LOT of respect for the intellectual traditions and achievements of Judaism, far more respect than I have for ANY form of Christianity. I don't just look at the beliefs of a religion, I also look at the society and culture of the people that practice it.

And if you don't like it, you're attacking me in an ad feminem argument, calling me a hypocrite. I'm being logical in stating that Messianic Judaism is an oxymoron. Mainly because it is an oxymoron.

Go to the Jews for Judaism website and read about the Southern Baptist campaign to convert Jews to Christianity thru Messianic Judaism. Do some homework before you attack me.

EstherRose · 06-26-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Do some homework before you attack me.

Who's attacking whom? After reading this thread a couple of times, it seems that you were the aggressor here. You don't like someone's beliefs, fine. Is it really neccessary to personally attack them as well?

Opera Nut · 06-26-2003, 01:35 AM

you missed the point completely.
Telling him to do his homework is not an attack.

He called me a hypocrite for criticizing religion, and I pointed out I like anyone else have the right to criticize or not criticize any facet of any religion, whether I belong to it or not.

If a Christian tells me I'm gonna roast in Hell if I don't join their religion, then I certainly have the right to say "I respect mainstream Judaism and I think Messianic Jews are a fraud".

I've read up on Judaism and studied it extensively.

Go back and read english.

winstonjen · 06-26-2003, 01:40 AM

Come on, calm down. Surely this is going too far:

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut

Go back and read english.

06-25-2003, 07:14 PM	#4
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	arrrgh! Messianic Jews make me ill. It's a front for Christianity and an oxymoron as well. I have a great deal of respect for the intellectual traditions of Judaism, especially Classical Reform, and I have NO respect for Messianic Jews. They are a fraud and it is sad that they are taking in people.

06-25-2003, 10:30 PM	#7
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	It's called the FIRST AMENDMENT, ever heard of it?? Magus, I stand by my statements. We allegedly have freedom of speech in America. It's called the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. As an atheist, I have the right to criticize or approve of ANY religion I want to, to any degree, without exception. Just as a True Christian(TM) has the right to disapprove of ALL other religions, and go around telling other people they are gonna end up as barbecue in Hell. You have not disproven any of my statements. Jews for Jesus IS an oxymoron. It is a contradiction in terms. You cannot believe in the messiah of the OT as predicted in Isaiah, and also believe that Jesus in the NT is the same messiah. It is a logical impossibility. And as I said, I have a WHOLE LOT of respect for the intellectual traditions and achievements of Judaism, far more respect than I have for ANY form of Christianity. I don't just look at the beliefs of a religion, I also look at the society and culture of the people that practice it. And if you don't like it, you're attacking me in an ad feminem argument, calling me a hypocrite. I'm being logical in stating that Messianic Judaism is an oxymoron. Mainly because it is an oxymoron. Go to the Jews for Judaism website and read about the Southern Baptist campaign to convert Jews to Christianity thru Messianic Judaism. Do some homework before you attack me.

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06-26-2003, 01:35 AM	#9
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	you missed the point completely. Telling him to do his homework is not an attack. He called me a hypocrite for criticizing religion, and I pointed out I like anyone else have the right to criticize or not criticize any facet of any religion, whether I belong to it or not. If a Christian tells me I'm gonna roast in Hell if I don't join their religion, then I certainly have the right to say "I respect mainstream Judaism and I think Messianic Jews are a fraud". I've read up on Judaism and studied it extensively. Go back and read english.

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