Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheep in the big city · 09-27-2002, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perchance:
: Have I lost something by never having been a theist?
-Perchance.

I've got the same unpleaeant feeling of lacking and unachievable knowledge. Many atheists have a quite well developed thirst for knowledge. So it really bugs me that I cannot (and will never) understand the state of believing in God. Sadly I also have lost all recollection of my early childhood when I suppose I believed in the easter bunny and Santa.
There are things that I have not much of a problem with not knowing, even though i'd really like to know (e.g. how doese gravity work). The difference with the religious experience is that many people I know and like a lot do believe in god and I fear I will always feel a bit distanced from them because I just cannot comprehend how those nice and really not dumb people can believe something that is so mind-boggingly ridiculous to me.

lpetrich · 09-27-2002, 09:35 PM

The most curious view I've ever seen is that of my sister, who complains that she was not raised in a religion. The reason being that she has nothing to fall back on in times of stress, since it now looks so silly to her.

My sister has expressed other such perverted views, which is why I call her my twisted sister.

Bubba · 09-27-2002, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
"I don't understand the demonization of, say, "fundamentalists" or "the religious right."

I do, they are a well financed and organized, possibly dangerous group. They would like to see the US become a Theocracy, force Christianity on everyone, force cretinism to be taught in schools. (This would give the US a tremendous edge in scientific achievement

)
Though their chances of success are small, they need to be watched, and voted against, they have a well organized grass roots campaign.

I can't say whether or not you missed anything since I grew up in a mainstream Protestant Religion, where church consisted of trying to stay awake while the Pastor droned on about something or another.

Gary North is truely nuts...I agree with your call for an active watch on the religious right.

Not that a place like Ohio would ever consider, say the teaching of creationism or ID in the classroom.

Bubba

Novowels · 09-28-2002, 01:16 AM

Uh. You lose out on that lingering guilt from being indoctrinated during your childhood?

If you want, you can have mine.

Perchance · 09-28-2002, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse:
Perchance:

I don't think that you never being a theist detracts from your humanity. I think feeling awe at truly beautiful things, love and security in a personal relationship, and knowing your place in the world/understanding yourself are all things that have equivalencies in religious life. If you can know these things, then you can understand the attractiveness in relgion.

If you lived through your adolescence, you can understand the bad things in religion.

--tibac

Thanks, wildernesse. I have experienced those things, and, actually, I am one of the happier people I know, at least judging from the things that other people say. Either theism doesn't always help everyone, or I just happen to live in a big sea of complainers

.

Sheep in the big city,

I know what you mean. I can remember believing in Santa Claus, but then I read a book told from the point of view of a sixth-grade boy who didn't believe in Santa Claus and was wondering if he should tell his little brother, so that went out the window then and there

.

I suppose I wouldn't really feel this way if theism wasn't such a big part of our society, and if it wasn't so fundamentally alien to me. Every now and then, I forget, and then someone near me says something about God and I realize, with a start of wonder, that to this person God is not only real, but a big part of his or her life.

It's weird.

lpetrich,

My sister has a similar view from the theist side. She believes in some strange mixture of Jesus and reincarnation, and talks about how she would go crazy if she didn't believe, whatever that means.

Novowels,

No, thank you

.

-Perchance.

frostymama · 09-28-2002, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
Perchance,
I believe I have experienced the growing up and going to church kind of theism and another kind that started when I became a "born again" Christian. I feel that the two are very different from each other. I really sense most atheists have experienced the first kind only. I am not trying to sound judgemental. But going to church because my Mom took me and meeting nice people in sunday school and singing songs, does not make up the sum total of what I have now. There was a time, before I became born again, when I had been away from going to church and I kind of missed that. So I can relate to how an atheist might feel in that sense. But that is not the same as the second type of belief I have now.
<snip>

Please be careful about assuming that most atheists have experienced "the first kind only". I know for a fact that there are more than a handful of us here who were very dedicated born again Christians before we deconverted. I know I put a lot of time, effort, and countless hours of study and prayer in my faith when I believed. It really frustrates me sometimes when Christians try to brush me off like I can't possibly have any concept of what being a True Christian (TM) is simply because I no longer believe.

ex-preacher · 10-02-2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:


All I know is that I have been angry with God before and this caused me to want to be an atheist for a while, but I got over it.

snip

I think angry atheists resemble people getting over a bad divorce. I think they are so angry because they perhaps actually were in Love at one point, which makes the hurt all the more painfull.

With all due respect GeoTheo, please refrain from assuming you know anything about why anyone is an atheist and I will refrain from speculating about why you aren't one. Do most people going through a nasty divorce suddenly decide that their ex-spouse is a figment of their imagination, an invisible fairy?

It certainly is painful discovering that someone you've been praying to doesn't exist. But I don't know anyone who became an atheist because they were angry at god. Atheists are only angry at real things and people.

Debbie T · 10-02-2002, 10:25 PM

Perchance, I am one that experienced a lot of anger. Although I am over it now. The anger comes from finding out all the lies that come out of fundamentalists. Some of these religions like the one I was in are so controlling, manipulating and in some ways abusive. So when you finally get free from them there is a lot of anger.

Not to mention the shunning from family and friends that came with leaving the religion behind.

Perhaps the only thing you missed out on is the therapy it takes to recover from fundamentalist religions after spending a childhood in it. Therapy to get over the fear that was instilled in you. Therapy to get back a self esteem you were never allowed to have.

After therapy and on the road to recovery and starting to feel like a normal healthy human being, with joy mixed in, there still sometimes are moments of anger for what was taken from me by my family and church community. They stole a lot from me.

You didn't miss out, I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to grow up as a normal happy child without fear of hell and damnation just for being a normal child going through normal stages of life.

Perchance · 10-03-2002, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debbie T:
Perchance, I am one that experienced a lot of anger. Although I am over it now. The anger comes from finding out all the lies that come out of fundamentalists. Some of these religions like the one I was in are so controlling, manipulating and in some ways abusive. So when you finally get free from them there is a lot of anger.

Hi Debbie T,

Believe me, I understand completely. Anger's a human emotion, after all. I was only reacting to the (in my opinion, worrisome) attitude I've seen at times, that all theists are to blame and evil and stupid and short-sighted.

And since there are some atheists who say that their theist experiences weren't so bad, and others who say that it gave them good experience to handle themselves in debates, I was just wondering if it was a kind of 'best requirement.'

-Perchance.

Celsus · 10-03-2002, 07:22 AM

I'm one of those who was once a born again believer. My sympathies with Christians come from understanding how easy it is to believe in the concept of being "set apart", and how comforting that idea can be. It's basically a theistic response to things everyone goes through - being picked on in school, dealing with identity, being remorseful for doing the wrong thing, coping with uncertainty in life, and worrying about death. It is also extremely easy to think in a certain way if everyone around you does the same, especially intelligent, caring people you respect and admire.

The anger comes from the time wasted, the realisation of futility about prayer and the reliance on something that simply wasn't actually there. I was a missionary kid, so I lived in (at that time) what I considered an ideal environment in Africa. Returning home was a blow to that ideal, and I tried desperately to rely on God to give me peace as I struggled to cope. Eventually, I became agnostic, but thought that Christianity was still a good thing. When I started to investigate Christianity, I became angry. Things that were by no means certain were portrayed as certain. Things that Christians had debated for millenia were proclaimed as universal truths. I had been taught to rely on a myth, and expecting God to deliver was an exercise in futility. If I had come to realise God wasn't there, I would probably have got up and done something productive, but instead, I searched the Bible, I prayed, I talked with Christians - because all that happened in my life was supposed to be part of God's plan.

I could just as easily have not come out of it at all - I was suicidal between the age of 15 and 17, with some recurrence till about 19 - all because I felt I could not cope with my life which was supposed to be going according to God's plan. I will never forget the times I sat in my bedroom window, twelve storeys up, thinking that God would surely forgive me for having tried and failed. My diary during this period is one of emotional blackness that comes out of fighting a futile fight without realising it. I always kept a permanent suicide note by my bed because I was never sure if or when I would kill myself. It was probably at this time that I started to realise how ridiculous the concept of heaven and hell was - I had sincerely tried all my life to be good and to have faith, yet if I killed myself, there was a good chance of ending up in hell. I'm sure there are others here who have been through much worse, and others who never came to grips with their experience. I was lucky.

My post-Christian anger was mostly directed at myself for being stupid, but at other times, it was at (specific) Christians no matter how sincere, and at others the anger was with God. However, the more God's non-existence became apparent, the less I could say I was actually angry with God, even if it was nice to have a recognisable target. Christians who still insist I'm angry with God just don't get it. Nor am I angry with them, nor am I angry with myself. I've now been over that anger for about 2 years, but writing all this out has still been hard.

So while I sympathise with many things (missionary activity that builds hospitals and feeds starving people, beliefs that result in kind actions), I dislike other things intensely (close-mindedness, hypocrisy, simplistic reasoning, giving false hope). Christians who are consistent in practising what they believe is the love of God and projecting it into actions can be wonderful. Christians who believe in the condemnation and wickedness of all nonbelievers are only to be abhorred. Obviously both sides of this belief have Biblical basis, but I prefer the Christians (including my family) who get on with life and try to be compassionate. Because I've met a wide range of Christians of all types, I would never condemn them in general (although the Bible is fair game). Above all, I sympathise with Christians who are going through hard times and relying on God.

Yet you haven't lost anything if you've reflected on your life. No one goes through the same experiences, but everyone has the chance to learn from their experience, and that of others. I would say be thankful that you didn't have to experience the pain, but can still be able to gain from others, even if you might not know exactly what it meant to them. As others have said in this thread, it is a good thing to come out of, but you can never recommend it to others.

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09-27-2002, 09:35 PM	#22
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The most curious view I've ever seen is that of my sister, who complains that she was not raised in a religion. The reason being that she has nothing to fall back on in times of stress, since it now looks so silly to her. My sister has expressed other such perverted views, which is why I call her my twisted sister.

09-28-2002, 01:16 AM	#24
Novowels Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,658	Uh. You lose out on that lingering guilt from being indoctrinated during your childhood? If you want, you can have mine.

10-02-2002, 10:25 PM	#28
Debbie T Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington the state Posts: 406	Perchance, I am one that experienced a lot of anger. Although I am over it now. The anger comes from finding out all the lies that come out of fundamentalists. Some of these religions like the one I was in are so controlling, manipulating and in some ways abusive. So when you finally get free from them there is a lot of anger. Not to mention the shunning from family and friends that came with leaving the religion behind. Perhaps the only thing you missed out on is the therapy it takes to recover from fundamentalist religions after spending a childhood in it. Therapy to get over the fear that was instilled in you. Therapy to get back a self esteem you were never allowed to have. After therapy and on the road to recovery and starting to feel like a normal healthy human being, with joy mixed in, there still sometimes are moments of anger for what was taken from me by my family and church community. They stole a lot from me. You didn't miss out, I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to grow up as a normal happy child without fear of hell and damnation just for being a normal child going through normal stages of life.

10-03-2002, 07:22 AM	#30
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	I'm one of those who was once a born again believer. My sympathies with Christians come from understanding how easy it is to believe in the concept of being "set apart", and how comforting that idea can be. It's basically a theistic response to things everyone goes through - being picked on in school, dealing with identity, being remorseful for doing the wrong thing, coping with uncertainty in life, and worrying about death. It is also extremely easy to think in a certain way if everyone around you does the same, especially intelligent, caring people you respect and admire. The anger comes from the time wasted, the realisation of futility about prayer and the reliance on something that simply wasn't actually there. I was a missionary kid, so I lived in (at that time) what I considered an ideal environment in Africa. Returning home was a blow to that ideal, and I tried desperately to rely on God to give me peace as I struggled to cope. Eventually, I became agnostic, but thought that Christianity was still a good thing. When I started to investigate Christianity, I became angry. Things that were by no means certain were portrayed as certain. Things that Christians had debated for millenia were proclaimed as universal truths. I had been taught to rely on a myth, and expecting God to deliver was an exercise in futility. If I had come to realise God wasn't there, I would probably have got up and done something productive, but instead, I searched the Bible, I prayed, I talked with Christians - because all that happened in my life was supposed to be part of God's plan. I could just as easily have not come out of it at all - I was suicidal between the age of 15 and 17, with some recurrence till about 19 - all because I felt I could not cope with my life which was supposed to be going according to God's plan. I will never forget the times I sat in my bedroom window, twelve storeys up, thinking that God would surely forgive me for having tried and failed. My diary during this period is one of emotional blackness that comes out of fighting a futile fight without realising it. I always kept a permanent suicide note by my bed because I was never sure if or when I would kill myself. It was probably at this time that I started to realise how ridiculous the concept of heaven and hell was - I had sincerely tried all my life to be good and to have faith, yet if I killed myself, there was a good chance of ending up in hell. I'm sure there are others here who have been through much worse, and others who never came to grips with their experience. I was lucky. My post-Christian anger was mostly directed at myself for being stupid, but at other times, it was at (specific) Christians no matter how sincere, and at others the anger was with God. However, the more God's non-existence became apparent, the less I could say I was actually angry with God, even if it was nice to have a recognisable target. Christians who still insist I'm angry with God just don't get it. Nor am I angry with them, nor am I angry with myself. I've now been over that anger for about 2 years, but writing all this out has still been hard. So while I sympathise with many things (missionary activity that builds hospitals and feeds starving people, beliefs that result in kind actions), I dislike other things intensely (close-mindedness, hypocrisy, simplistic reasoning, giving false hope). Christians who are consistent in practising what they believe is the love of God and projecting it into actions can be wonderful. Christians who believe in the condemnation and wickedness of all nonbelievers are only to be abhorred. Obviously both sides of this belief have Biblical basis, but I prefer the Christians (including my family) who get on with life and try to be compassionate. Because I've met a wide range of Christians of all types, I would never condemn them in general (although the Bible is fair game). Above all, I sympathise with Christians who are going through hard times and relying on God. Yet you haven't lost anything if you've reflected on your life. No one goes through the same experiences, but everyone has the chance to learn from their experience, and that of others. I would say be thankful that you didn't have to experience the pain, but can still be able to gain from others, even if you might not know exactly what it meant to them. As others have said in this thread, it is a good thing to come out of, but you can never recommend it to others.

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