Perchance

I have the impression that most of the non-believers who post here are first-generation atheists or agnostics who left the fold on their own. (Not everyone, obviously, but a lot of people). Since they are, they seem to have sympathies with theists that I find hard to understand, as well as angers that I find hard to understand.

The sympathy part: I've read many explanations of why religious people believe, and still Do Not Get It. The psychological explanation- out of fear, desire to conform, religious experiences being soothing to the mind, and so on- at least makes sense, but I still don't understand how people can let their fears control them that way, to the point of ignoring counter-evidence. Non-believers who were once theists seem to understand.

The anger part: I can understand not liking a specific person for something he or she has done to you, or even a specific group that has done you harm, but I don't understand hating all theists for it. (Again, this doesn't apply to everyone here, but it's an attitude that appears at times). I don't understand the demonization of, say, "fundamentalists" or "the religious right." Often, I participate in such a conversation thinking of particular people I have known, rather than a great faceless, dangerous enemy.

I suppose this is getting confused (not that that's anything new ), but I was wondering: Is there something essentially human in theism, something I've lost because I've never experienced it and probably never will unless I convert for some reason unimaginable to me at the present moment? Is it essential for an atheist to have experience in theism, so that he or she can both meet theists on equal ground and see the dangers? If "Nothing human is strange to me" is an ideal I should strive towards, then does that mean I need to experience religion to really understand humanity?

-Perchance.

MadMordigan

Human beings can sometime get mauled by animals, but thats hardly a good reason to put bacon on yer dick and start teasing pitbulls.

Walter_Mitty

In a word: no.

Quoting Russell: "Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness."

I would suggest that there is something essentially human in being human regardless of belief--or lack thereof.

ImGod

It’s hard to explain the feeling. Religion was an integral part of growing up. It’s very similar to the other customs you adopt as a child. I learned to act and speak like my family and go to church like my family. Therefore, when I abandoned those learned customs it required time to fill in the missing areas. It’s a similar feeling to being homesick. When I went to college things were different than at home so it took a while to adjust. The same when I got married. I’m approaching this aspect of my life the same way by giving myself time to adjust.

The struggle I have now is with the constant religious reminders that bring back that homesick feeling. Fortunately, the feelings are fading with time.

You didn’t miss anything. You just grew up differently. I don’t think you need to experience religion because I doubt you would get any more meaning out of life than I did by going to church, drinking coffee, spacing out through the services and glossing over the class lessons so you could maintain a group of “friends”.

Hobbs

That's an interesting question, and one I've thought about a lot but still am not sure how to answer. The short answer: I'm not sorry I went through a theist phase, but I wouldn't want my son to go through one.

To unpack that: I think a large part of it depends on what sort of a theist you might hypothetically have been. I was in a relatively benign strand of evangelicalism, so I have the sympathy without the anger. Others, however, have been deeply scarred by their experiences with more malignant forms of fundamentalism.

Also, though I'm glad I have the perspective on and understanding of theism that resulted from having been one, I wish I hadn't taken it quite so seriously, or for quite so long. I think, for example, that I missed out on some of what should be thought of as normal experiences of growing up which I was taught to think of as evil or wrong or off proper limits or not worthy of one's time that should be spent on God's work.

As for my son, if I knew a way for him to experience benign theism from the inside for a short while and knew that he would soon grow beyond it, then I guess I might want him to have the experience. My not wanting him to be a theist is probably more due to knowing that he could end up in a malignant form and/or never escape.

But as for my experience making me better able to deal with theists or help them move beyond theism, I'm not sure it's necessary. Two nontheists who had a strong influence on me being able to move beyond theism had never been theists themselves.

Also, I don't think my experiences allow me to completely "get" "how people can let their fears control them that way, to the point of ignoring counter-evidence." I'm one who didn't ignore the counter-evidence once I actually saw it. The psychological explanations of fear or conformity or soothing thoughts were not, I think, major factors in my beliefs when I had them, and I don't think they are necessarily major factors in a lot of other theists' beliefs. (I think the book Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer offers some interesting insights on why and how people believe and find theism so compelling.) But they do appear to be significant factors for at least some believers, or at least something is giving them the ability to ignore counter-evidence. In spite of having been a theist, I still can't really understand how adults, especially those who should know better, can still maintain what to me are childish and immature ways of viewing the world.

And I wouldn't want to experience being mauled by an animal.

So, that's my answer to your question.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

Wyz_sub10

I don't think you are missing out, necessarily. It's just that former theists will likey approach their atheism from a different perspective (or maybe not).

Like others have stated, religion was such an integral part of growing up for me that me leaving my theism was a major part of my coming to terms with who I really was and what I really thought of the world around me. I'm sure you went through that stage (maybe still are) but your path was likely different, as it likely was in finding love or settling on a career or whatever.

On a lighter note regarding ex-theists, as any smoker will tell you, there's no bigger pain in the ass to the smoker than the ex-smoker.

Kosh

Let's see if I can make an analogy. What matters the most to me is truth. What upsets me the most is someone spewing lies, regardless of whether they know they are lies. I find nothing more aggrivating someone arguing, with confidence, from a position of ignorance.

As an example, here is something my neighbor once said, in a very confident salesman like voice:

"Nobody has ever been able to prove the Bible wrong".

Now let's say instead he had said:

"Nobody has ever been able to prove that 1+1+1 isn't 2".

Would not a statement like that, said in front of your kids, infuriate you? Both statements are easily refuted with a small amount of research. And yet this is exactly what the Christians are doing. They go around making these statements and arguments based on fallacious logic, and these statements have the potential to impact gullible peoples lives.

GeoTheo

Perchance,
I believe I have experienced the growing up and going to church kind of theism and another kind that started when I became a "born again" Christian. I feel that the two are very different from each other. I really sense most atheists have experienced the first kind only. I am not trying to sound judgemental. But going to church because my Mom took me and meeting nice people in sunday school and singing songs, does not make up the sum total of what I have now. There was a time, before I became born again, when I had been away from going to church and I kind of missed that. So I can relate to how an atheist might feel in that sense. But that is not the same as the second type of belief I have now. I have the sense of never being alone and that every thought in my head is a prayer. I have a sense of having God's actual presence in my life. I also experience times when it is stronger than other times. At these times I feel very peacefull and in awe of God. Sometimes it is almost too powerful a feeling to take. It is like being in the presence of a very powerful yet benevolent person, kind of like when I was a small child and with an adult that I really admired. But this somehow rubs off on me and causes me to get along better with other people and be more giving and les selfish. Other times I feel like I am very far from God's presence. These are usually times when I feel I am not acting as I should and doing things I know to be wrong. I think the desire of wanting to be in God's presence is the main motivator Christians have for wanting to do what they believe to be right and not the fear of going to Hell as some believe. Even though I have experienced this in my life, I believe that I can push God away from me if I want to. I can choose not to be in His presence, but it kind of kills a small part of me inside. This also affects my attitude towards others and makes me become hostile and irritable, especially towards other Christians. I then can try to fill the void left behind with other types of consuming activities. I think it is possible that there are some atheists here that actually were born again at one time and are doing this and that is why they are angry. Though I can't know for sure.
I only can go by what I have experienced. Various times since I have been born again I have become angry with God and have been like this and once even tried to tell myself I was an atheist.
Hope this provides a little insight but it really is somthing you have to experience. And also: I don't buy the fact that it is a delusion based on fear of death. I have always maintained that there are things in life more importannt than life itself and I believed this even before I was born again. For example, I have always believed that it would be better to be killed than to give up freedom, or to allow someone to cause me to live in fear. I developed this from being bullied as a child and finally decided that I would never be bullied again. This caused me to give up the fear of being physically harmed or even killed. Once I lost this it was no longer possible for anyone to bully me. This was before I became a born again Christian.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]</p>

MortalWombat

I hope you aren't implying that atheism is just being "angry with God."

Marduk

"I don't understand the demonization of, say, "fundamentalists" or "the religious right."

I do, they are a well financed and organized, possibly dangerous group. They would like to see the US become a Theocracy, force Christianity on everyone, force cretinism to be taught in schools. (This would give the US a tremendous edge in scientific achievement )
Though their chances of success are small, they need to be watched, and voted against, they have a well organized grass roots campaign.

I can't say whether or not you missed anything since I grew up in a mainstream Protestant Religion, where church consisted of trying to stay awake while the Pastor droned on about something or another.