Ojuice5001

There have been four stages in the relations of humans and gods:

1. Pre-Roman times (the beginning of humanity to 8th century BCE): In these times, humans and gods lived in an unstable relation. Sometimes they were friends, sometimes they were rivals, and things could change at any time. Humans had to earn the right to be considered more than just another species of animal. But the trend was in favor of greater peace.

2. The Roman Empire (8th century BCE to 4th century CE): Romulus and the city he founded were in a successful peace treaty together with the gods. This treaty operated both on the political level, and the level of everyday life. This worked out very well for both the humans and the gods. The official name for this treaty was pax deorum.

3. Christian times (4th century CE to 18th century CE): The Christians ruined pax deorum as soon as they had the power. They were harmless in their role as a mere mystery religion, but when they actually took control of the Empire, Jehovah became chief god. He was a rather unpredicable ruler--sometimes he did what was best for the humans, and sometimes he was tyrannical. He made sure that the only people in his domain who believed in the other gods were without any kind of influence. He failed to successfully nip the Renaissance in the bud, so that it led to the modern world. But he was generally in charge for quite a while after the Renaissance.

4. The disappearance of the gods (18th century to present): The gods are still present, and humans and gods will always have a soft spot for each other. But the thing is, now we have a social order that can afford to marginalize gods of any kind. With the Industrial Revolution, we have a society whose mainstream takes only so much notice of anything but itself, because it has the illusion of self-sufficiency. And our experiences of the gods and nature are filtered through the paradigm of metaphysical naturalism. Humans are made to appreciate the gods, and the natural world, and yet they only have a little contact with either. This is a time when we have great security and wealth, but at the price of being alone, with only other humans for company. One can only hope this ends in a more positive way than a return to the Abrahamic gods being in total control, as Allah now threatens to do.

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

Perchance

Ummmm.... interesting.

(Restraining the automatic "How do you know any gods exist?" question for the moment...)

How do you know any of these things? Human religious attitudes can be gleaned from history, but how do you know the minds of the gods?

Why do you assume that what held true for the part of the world where Rome was held true for the entire world? Would the same "stages" prevail in China, in Africa, in Britain before the coming of the Romans, in ancient America, in Australia?

Why do humans have to "earn the right" to consideration? If the gods are really superior beings, they might withhold respect from a particular individual until he had proved he earned it, but basic consideration of humans as having a right to exist should be part of them.

If the gods really want to return, why do they hide themselves?

If we can ignore the gods cheerfully, and live fuller and happier lives as a result, why serve them?

-Perchance.

Heathen Dawn

In my worldview I see the following stages:

1. First looks: Human beings look at nature, and assume that every aspect of nature is alive. Thus, the sun rises and sets of its own accord, rivers flow of their own accord, and so on.

2. Puppet-on-string development: humans begin to think the aspects of nature are controlled by various sovereigns - the gods. The sun is controlled by a sun god, the rivers by a god of the rivers, and so on.

3. Simplification and unification: the god-belief system is simplified to fewer and fewer gods, until only one, the Absolute Ruler, is left. Monotheism.

4. (after a long time) doubts about monotheism: the system of the sovereign single god begins to break under the weight of scientific discovery and unmaintainable theodicy.

5. Naturalism and atheism: scientific naturalistic explanations lead a growing number of people to think nature is all there is. Materialism sets in.

6. Naturalism and pantheism - the closing of the circle: once again, as in the primeval past, the elements and aspects of nature are seen as moving of their own accord. The sun and the rivers are not controlled by gods, nor by a single god, but act just because (of their own accord). By virtue of Darwin's theory, mankind is once again unified with the rest of Nature instead of being a special case (which had been so appealing to him!). The circle of belief about nature and mankind is closed, and after thousands of years, humanity is back to putting Nature at the focal centre of the universe.

Nature all there is. Nature the Creation. Nature the Creator. Nature God and Goddess. To Nature is all worship.

Perchance

But why does nature deserve worship, rather than just appreciation?

Or do you see worship as a special form of appreciation? I object to the 'humbling' I think it implies, as if humans were obliged to crouch whining before some greater force, instead of standing on their legs and looking it in the face. We're not superior to the rest of nature, but we're not less than it is, either. (How can we be, if we're part of it?)

-Perchance.

Jamie_L

OJ:

This seems a particularly "western" view to be labeled "human relations with the gods". More like "european human relations with their gods."

Jamie

nerv111

I’m curious as to why there was a move towards monotheistic religions in the west and not in the east. What brought about the evolution of the “one supreme god” religion? And also why is monotheism so hostile towards all other religions?

Polytheistic religions of the ancient Mediterranean and Mesopotamia coexisted in peace despite their differences. Monotheistic religions of today (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) are hostile towards one another despite their similarities. This might be due to the fact that the Jude-Christian god (YHWH) started out as a tribal war god, and the region in which this religion evolved was often engulfed in conflict. The contrast between religions such as those of the Ancient Egyptians (which due to geographical conditions and relative isolation from the remainder of the world during the early part of civilization was relatively peaceful and more along the lines of current Eastern religions) and the monotheistic ones is startling. Why does there exist a difference between East and West in regards to religious thought in the first place? I think there are the question that need to be considered when examining the human relationship with religion.

Ojuice5001

Perchance,

Inferences about the minds of the gods come from both religion and history. Religion gives us a picture of the gods' personality, and historical events, being guided by the gods, can be used to know about them.

I would say that the same stages can be seen in non-Western societies. Thus China is in stage 4, Iran is in stage 3, India is in stage 2, and New Guinea is in stage 1. They happen in the same order, but it is possible for a transition to skip a stage--for instance, seventh-century Arabia went straight from 1 to 3. Monotheism seems to be a breeding ground for secularism, for two reasons. Monotheistic gods do less in the world than pantheons, and monotheism encourages a tendency to unify things in the world, while the plausibility of supernaturalism depends on recognition of the essential multiplicity of the universe.

My "earn the right" remark was inspired by the fact of evolution. You have to remember that 10,000's of years ago the gods of that time had literally seen humans evolve from lower animals. I'm saying that their recognition of human intelligence must have built up similarly, and lagged somewhat behind. Remember, too, that Jupiter didn't want us to have fire in the creation story. There is a mythological basis for the idea.

The gods would like to return, but there are several reasons it's hard. One is Christianity, atheism, and other beliefs that deny most or all gods. Another is that there are, apparently, few workable ways to act on our society in a way that creates a place for them. Another is that if society is doing well with only a little involvement, it wouldn't be fair to force themselves on us.

I never said that individuals can ignore the gods and be no worse off. What I said is that society can. Individuals still have a spiritual need to relate to the gods, and they are, other things equal, better off fulfilling it. (Studies of happiness have shown a moderate connection of this kind.) But since they are highly influenced by society, and society gives only so much attention to divinity, it can be hard.

daemon

This has always seemed bizarre to me. Why on earth would the beliefs of human beings affect the gods? I know of no myths where gods dwindled to nothing or became less powerful due to a lack of believers; it seems to be of recent invention. Do you have any explanation for how you know this to be the case?
What does that even mean?
Since when have the gods been concerned with fairness?

I am afraid you are incorrect. I do not have a need of any sort to relate to gods of any sort, so it cannot be the case that all individuals have such needs.
What studies?

Heathen Dawn

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Personal preference, that's all, not a requirement like in theistic religion. My attitude towards nature has gone far beyond mere appreciation. Nature is to me what God is to the theists (with differences, of course; I don't believe prayer or worship has any effect on anyone's fate).

Nature worship isn't "humbling" before nature. It's not like theistic religion. Nature worship is a system of devotional and ceremonial actions for symbolizing our connection to nature. For example, celebrating the Festival of Trees (in mid-February) every years reminds me of the yearly cycle of the trees; the Sanctification of the Moon, which takes place at every full moon, is a symbol for our relationship with the lunar cycle. There are dozens of such temporal rituals that make up the thing I call "nature worship".

MadMordigan

But the thing is, now we have a social order that can afford to marginalize gods of any kind.

Or, perhaps, the gods were never there in the first place and humans were just make the whole load of bullshit up?