Jack the Bodiless

This was more of an observation than an insult.

You had made a specific claim: that the authors of Genesis got all the key events in the right order.
I pointed out, at the foot of page 1, that this claim was false. Even your attempts to redefine the meaning of various verses do not permit the claim that the Genesis events ALL occurred in the CORRECT ORDER. This was also pointed out by Fiach.

Yet you repeated your claim:
It was at this point that I stated that "you seem to have developed a reading comprehension problem". This DOES appear to be the case. You are not addressing the issue that your statements are erroneous: in fact, you were ignoring my own posts altogether.

And you are STILL making false claims about the chronological sequence of Genesis!
He had created the Earth. Apparently you wish to ignore the verse that directly contradicts your claim, or to imagine that it's talking about something else entirely.

...So where do we stand?

Genesis mentions various events which can be interpreted as analogous to actual steps in the formation and development of the Universe, the Earth, and life. But it all happened in a few days, specific details are lacking, and the sequence is wrong.

Therefore there is no reason to assume that the authors of this creation myth had any supernatural knowledge.

TomboyMom

[Off-topic rant removed.]

d

Monkey

Absolute rubbish. This show a complete misunderstanding of the nature of science, and the discoveries being made by scientists.

No, it's how YOU look at it. Actually, my active investigations of "the creation", lead away from silly superstitions.

So are you preaching or aren't you?

Again, how YOU look at them. If you wish to interprate the bible this way, then that's your business. Unless you have some tangible evidence, your not going to convince anyone here.

Self evaluation needed.

No, you created God because you exist and want to feel less lonely. Your constant preaching gets you nowhere here.

~Monkey

Albert Cipriani

Here's the post Jack says I've ignored and have thereby demonstrated my “poor reading skills,” which is not an insult but, he insists, “an observation.”:

1. Earth and Light: WRONG.
2. Water and Land: WRONG.
3. Land and Plants: RIGHT, but obvious. Plants and animals have to wait until there's somewhere to put them.
4. Sun/Moon and Plants: WRONG.
5. Land plants and marine life: WRONG.
6. Birds and Land Animals: WRONG.
7. Marine and Land Animals: RIGHT.
8. Land Animals and Man: RIGHT.
Not exactly a good record, is it?”

Gee, I guess he’s right about my reading skills, cuz I thought it read like a score card. I didn’t realize he was engaging me in rational discourse, pointing out the error of my ways, disabusing me of my erroneous interpretations.

Sorry to have overlooked so cogent an argument from you, Jack. Now for my equally as cogent and well-reasoned response:
1. RIGHT
2. RIGHT
3. RIGHT
4. RIGHT
5. RIGHT
6. RIGHT
7. RIGHT
8. RIGHT

-- Insincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

diana

Keep the discourse civil and respectful. Yes...religion is a touchy subject for anyone who is genuinely interested in it, which is why we are forced to be more emotionally mature than those who prefer to not discuss it at all.

Things appear to be getting testy. Cool it. In other words, let's see which one of you can out-gentleman the other.

Thank you.

d

Albert Cipriani

[Complaint deleted.]

d

7thangel

S. D. Jim said: I really do not understand what you are saying here. However, I think I should point out that in Genesis 3 where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is mentioned, We weren't given this gift. Eve stole the fruit and Adam ate it thus gaining the knowledge God had forbidden to them.

That’s actually and excellent observation, Jim. One of the belief that the Bible is leading us is to know that God is doing all(good and evil) things. But, as I have pointed out in my response to Fiach, that all these things, good and evil, work together for “GOOD “ to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose. Now, the story about the tree of knowledge of good and evil is somewhat absurd for a God to put in the garden without knowing the consequences therewith. God actually knows that Adam and Eve will fall into eating the forbidden fruit. Thus God is actually responsible for Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of good and evil, and of them becoming in God’s image. One thing that we should learn in the story is that we cannot come into the image of God without having knowledge of good and evil. And also, that God is responsible for the existence of all things, good and evil, for the purpose that having knowledge of them, we become in the image of God. We should not forget that all things work together for good to them that love God.

The next question you might ask is, “How come we are forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil when it is the one that made us to be in the image of God?”

One thing for sure, the story should be taken figuratively, just like the salvation of Christ on the cross. To eat means “to have life.” Thus, we are forbidden to eat meant “not to have life because of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” Now, knowledge of good and evil is given unto whom God will give. It is not something that come out from our own power. And it is not because we are endued with great knowledge, we will surely be saved. Actually, there are wise men used of God only to end up into destruction and unbelief. And there are ignorant men who are being led by God to believe Him, and end up saved. As I said before, all our being is actually given of God. So what is the point? The point is that God, being the creator and provider of all things, has all the options to choose whomsoever He will, not because we are measured of our knowledge of good and evil.

We are saved because of God’s purpose in Christ. And it is God who chooses who’s who in the body(Church) of Christ. Now, the “tree of life” actually represents Christ. Christ is the Logos. Logos meant something thought, or conceptualized, or planned, and thus it represents the wisdom of God. In short, we are saved because of God’s plan, and thus we actually have no influence even of our salvation, not of our great knowledge of good and evil, not because there are good things that we see in ourselves. Rather, we are being made into our being according to God’s plan. And that in the end, all things will work together for good to them that love God, to them who are chosen according to His purpose.

God Bless

Jobar

7thangel, what do you think about Hell, and eternal punishment? And do you consider yourself a literalist- is, for instance, the tale of Noah to be taken as unquestionably true, or is it simply a myth with perhaps some value as a parable?

If you do not believe that the Bible is literally the "Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God" then how do you claim to know all these things you are saying to us? (I appreciate your calm and non-condemnatory way of preaching what you consider 'Gospel truth', but you must realize that we have here former preachers and Biblical scholars, who do not believe that any of what you say is true. You cannot simply preach to us as you would to someone who had never heard of Christianity; lots of us were Christians and then de-converted because of what we *know* about the religion, not what we do *not* know.)

Amos

Jobar, I feel offended by the above post because you seem to think that everybody here is preaching and that you guys are prime targets. I am sure that 7thangel is here to learn and to fine-tune his outlook on life, be it one way or the other. Participation here is learning and this is true for all of us and if we can have fun doing it it is that much better for all of us.

The fact that former preachers and scholors don't believe much is irrelevant and in fact don't say much for them except that what they believed at one time was wrong. But who says that they are right now?

j ford

I think you are taking this the wrong way Amos. I don't see anything as attacking in Jobar's post. In fact, I think it was very civil of him to approach it the way he did.

I agree with what he said, it seems that 7thAngel's approach is as if speaking to people who know nothing of Christianity or other religions. The statement of former preachers and scholars was simply stating that they have lived life devoted to the church, and for some reason, came to believe that they had been misled. I think that is more of a truth how people can be programmed to think one way without question, and when they finally open their minds, they can see another way that may make more sense.

I think a main difference between the religious and atheist (speaking generally), is that religious people are only willing to believe their side as truth, where as most atheists will look at both sides for truth and evidence, or lack there of.