lcb

you know toto, I am trying to be intellectually honest..are you? I will finish reading Tim Callahan's book as you suggested, however i was surprised that you dismissed by suggestion to study in depth the history of the '48 war...the primary criticism the skeptics direct at the the theists seems to be that they are intellectually inelastic/mind made up, but I see the same a priori problem with many of the theists here.

I must say, i continue to learn a lot about the forensic/adversarial intellectual process by debating with both theists and non-theists.Interesting, in that i see the exact same polarization intellectually whether i argue with holocaust deniers or gays as to genetic/environmental or full professors as to whether they exploit adjunct and assistant professors!!!!

lcb

p.s. and at over 3,000 posts, it would seem that you just might have an emotional as well as intellectual dog in this fight. do you?

philechat

Dear lcb: Can you think of better ways other than <a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#hominem" target="_blank">ad hominem</a>?

Vorkosigan

the primary criticism the skeptics direct at the the theists seems to be that they are intellectually inelastic/mind made up, but I see the same a priori problem with many of the theists here.

No, the primary criterion is that the prophecies have not been fulfilled in the way the Bible specified, are taken out of context, are self-fulfilled (in that Jews consciously worked to fulfill them), are trivial (like Is 7:14 "A maiden shall bear a child" -- no shit, maidens often do that) or do not apply to the current situation, but past ones.

Why don't you pick what you think are the 10 best prophecies and list them for us? I have already asked you to do this, but you keep refusing.

Vorkosigan

Toto

Please go back and answer the questions I asked above. If you can show me that there is some relevance to the history of the '48 war, I will consider studying it in depth. But so far you have not. In fact, you have not made any coherent statement that would indicate you understand what the issues are here.

lcb

Q1. well you have said that christians and jews conspired to fulfill these prophecies soooo i would guess that their fulfillment benefits both the messianic jewish and christian paradigms.(since both groups argue that the God of the Bible is in part authenticated by fulfilled prophecies.

Q2.If they had lost they would have been driven into the sea and no more Israel and then the restoration prophecies wouldnt have been fulfilled.

Q3. dont understand this q,its the fulfilled prophecies that shift paschals' wager from being a false dichotomy to a valid one.

and the reason i focused on this issue was because after i read McDowell and then its rebuttal (Jury in Need of dismissal, etc) i noticed that this area seemed to be the one the skeptic side had the most trouble explaining. That's why i am reading Callahan-curious if he can explain it.
and the militatry details are critical because they would militate in favor of a resolution of the issue of whether it was self-fulfilling or not.

lcb

ps Volks..i dont have a dog in this fight, i have no idea which "10" listed on that website are the best. I only focused on the restoration prophecis 'cuz they are so obviously fulfilled. (i probably should mention that my current area of research involves the application of Game theory to historical scenarios and mathematical odds of different outcomes)not that it is really relevant....that's how i stumbled into McDowell and Reisler and Jeffrey and Still and Lowder etc etc....
for instance..the return of the Ethiopian Jews to Israel...what are the odds of that? its interesting isnt it?

lcb

one more thing, sorry, lcb is on your side, help lcb out!

philechat

Restoration after 2000 years? Julian the Apostate (the last Pagan Roman Emperor) at around 300 AD tries to rebuild the third Temple of Jerusalem for the Jews, after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD. If the plan succeeded, would the world end at 300AD, in accordence to OT prophecies?

The fact that it takes 2000 years to restore Israel implies that despite the persistence of the Jews (and the help of some Pagans), their efforts were wasted for the last 2000 years. Could we call the re-establishment of Israel as late as 20th century successful then? Not really.

Tristan Scott

icb,


In my opinion it is unfair to judge Pascal's Wager on just the face value of the wager alone, without understanding Pascal's views on faith.

Pascal said: "It is the heart which perceives God and not the reason. That is what faith is: God perceived by the heart, not by the reason. By faith we know he exists. Faith is different from proof. One is human and the other a gift of God. . . . This is the faith that God himself puts into our hearts. . . "

IMO this means that Pascal is saying that if you take him up on his wager that God will show himself to you. If you take him up on his wager and "believe" in God, open your heart to him, if you will, then God will do the rest.

I think you have to keep in mind that Pascal was a man of science trying to reconcile his faith with his science.

I think Pascal's Wager is less about faith, and more about self.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Tristan Scott ]</p>