Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Plebe · 09-21-2002, 12:19 PM

Someone on another email list sent me this and decided to query the 30 Second Kneeldown people with their own Bible. Does anyone here know the book of Daniel/Bible well enough to critique 30KD's reply in this instance?
-----Original Message-----
From: XXXXXXXX
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:03 AM
To: info@30kd.org
Subject: Out of interest....

How do you reconcile what you are doing with Matthew 6:5-6?

From: "Tom Sipling" <info@30kd.org>
To: XXXXXXXX

Daniel knelt and prayed three times a day with his window OPENED towards
Jerusalem. He got thrown in the lion's den as a result of his open
praying. Jesus prayed publicly and died on a cross publicly and I guess
he could have done that privately. He didn't pray for the sick in a
closet. SYATP is public prayer and is done every year at a flag pole.
Football players kneel and pray both after every football game in the
middle of a field and many after a touchdown.

Jesus was speaking of pride in the heart not the posture of our body in
a public place. It would be really difficult for a student to kneel in
their hallway with pride. Could there be some Pharisees praying the
30KD? I'm sure that could happen in the hallway or the flag pole. Could
there be some Pharisees praying in the church publicly (that is not a
closet)? I am sure there are. I believe it isn't about the posture of
the body but a posture of the heart.

I honor your conviction and appreciate your e-mail.

4 the Harvest,

Tom Sipling

Toto · 09-21-2002, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Daniel 6:4 At this, the administrators and the satraps tried to find grounds for charges against Daniel in his conduct of government affairs, but they were unable to do so. They could find no corruption in him, because he was trustworthy and neither corrupt nor negligent.
. . .
6 So the administrators and the satraps went as a group to the king and said: "O King Darius, live forever! 7 The royal administrators, prefects, satraps, advisers and governors have all agreed that the king should issue an edict and enforce the decree that anyone who prays to any god or man during the next thirty days, except to you, O king, shall be thrown into the lions' den. 8 Now, O king, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered-in accordance with the laws of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed." 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing.

10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help.

So Daniel prayed in his house, in a room with a window open to Jerusalem. He was thrown into the lion's den, according to the story, because his enemies had persuaded the king to outlaw prayer to a God as a trap for Daniel. It is stretching things a lot to equate this with public prayer.

Jesus himself is described in the Gospels as usually withdrawing to a quiet place to pray, except for blessing the fishes and loaves, and for reciting the Lord's prayer, which was an example of how to pray, and the few words uttered on the cross.

The <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/prayer.htm" target="_blank">Religious Tolerance Site</a> contains a helpful summary of the issue and the relevant Biblical quotes:

Quote:

Many liberal Christians interpret Matthew 6:6 literally. Jesus believed that prayers are to be an intensely personal event between a person and God; no one else should be present. Prayer to him was a private matter. Jesus condemns prayers in situations where other people are present.

. . .

Most conservative Christians tend to downplay Jesus' instruction about the importance of going off by oneself and pray alone and in secret. After all, if public prayer is not permitted, then just about every Christian service is seriously in error, with the possible exception of some by the Society of Friends (Quakers). Conservatives interpret Matthew 6:5 as not condemning public prayer. Rather, it criticizes only that prayer in public that is motivated by a desire to show off.

The site then lists examples of Jesus praying in the Gospels. There is no instance where Jesus unambiguously prays in public (or even in the presense of another person), although there is one case where he might have prayed while his disciples were present (if that counts). You could copy a large part of that web page and send it to Tom Sipling, but I doubt that it would make a dent.

chiron64 · 09-21-2002, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Rather, it criticizes only that prayer in public that is motivated by a desire to show off.

Is there any other kind of public prayer?

daemon · 09-23-2002, 10:33 AM

Quote:

chiron64: Is there any other kind of public prayer?

I would argue yes, but it certainly isn't orchestrated.

09-21-2002, 12:19 PM	#1
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	***30 Second Kneel Down Replies to email... Someone on another email list sent me this and decided to query the 30 Second Kneeldown people with their own Bible. Does anyone here know the book of Daniel/Bible well enough to critique 30KD's reply in this instance? -----Original Message----- From: XXXXXXXX Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:03 AM To: info@30kd.org Subject: Out of interest.... How do you reconcile what you are doing with Matthew 6:5-6? From: "Tom Sipling" <info@30kd.org> To: XXXXXXXX Daniel knelt and prayed three times a day with his window OPENED towards Jerusalem. He got thrown in the lion's den as a result of his open praying. Jesus prayed publicly and died on a cross publicly and I guess he could have done that privately. He didn't pray for the sick in a closet. SYATP is public prayer and is done every year at a flag pole. Football players kneel and pray both after every football game in the middle of a field and many after a touchdown. Jesus was speaking of pride in the heart not the posture of our body in a public place. It would be really difficult for a student to kneel in their hallway with pride. Could there be some Pharisees praying the 30KD? I'm sure that could happen in the hallway or the flag pole. Could there be some Pharisees praying in the church publicly (that is not a closet)? I am sure there are. I believe it isn't about the posture of the body but a posture of the heart. I honor your conviction and appreciate your e-mail. 4 the Harvest, Tom Sipling

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