Freethought & Rationalism Archive

VivaHedone · 02-20-2003, 02:53 PM

Some Bible quotes (or nearly quotes): 'Turn the other cheek', 'Do not resist evil men', 'If someone sues you for your tunic, then give him you cloak as well', 'Do not judge others'. Surely the clear and unambiguous message is: Accept the wrongs done to you on Earth, because only God can punish wrongdoers, and will do so after death. Surely this means that all law enforcement systems violate Christian teachings?

Also, we would just have to let Osama bin Laden take over the Earth. But then Christianity would be abolished, and any new children would have no exposure to it, thereby casting an entire generation into sin.

If a truly Christian system was in place, anyone wishing to abolish the religion would have to be allowed to. Does this sound like a wise teaching to anyone?

Besides, you try and tell a fundamentalist Christian that they're really an anarchist...

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 03:59 PM

Man, why don't I keep my bible with me at all times, like a good fundie? I mean atheist!

I don't know where it is, but at some point in the bible (probably in the New Testament

) Jesus told his followers that they should obey the laws of the land, and when asked what to do if the laws of the land contradict god's laws, he replied, "Let Caesar's laws be Caesar's." Meaning you need to break the law of the land if it is contradictory to his. Sounds pretty straightforward to me! Unfortunately, this may be the kind of thinking that let's women get away with drowning their babies in bathtubs.

Jen

02-20-2003, 04:02 PM

Just opposite I think, obey Caesar first: "Render unto Caesar what is due to him" or somehting like that?

Yeah, bathtubs are bad and Ithink thay should have warnings on them.

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Just opposite I think, obey Caesar first: "Render unto Caesar what is due to him" or somehting like that?

Really? hmmm... I am going to look it up again tonight. I thought the part you said was the first part, and then the part I said was the answer to the "but what if ..." part. It has been a long time, though, so it is entirely possible that I am mis-remembering (or possibly just mis-interpreting). I am seriously considering buying one of those decorative bible caddies, so I can have the thing with me at all times. I left my bible, my "born again skeptics guide to the bible" and my "how to think about weird things" on the dining room table last night, and my theist girlfriend asked me this morning if I was trying to tell her something. Oops!

02-20-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JenniferD
Really? hmmm... I am going to look it up again tonight. I thought the part you said was the first part, and then the part I said was the answer to the "but what if ..." part.

Please do, I could very well be wrong. I just always thought that the Laws of the land take priority over religious law for the simple reason that the laws of the land are based on religious law.

I take it your theist friend does not go to your desert parties?

Ensign Steve · 02-20-2003, 05:52 PM

Okay, you were right. This is the whole verse, from the New American Standard Bible:

Mark 12:17: And Jesus said to them, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." and they were amazed at Him.

(amazed?)

All this time I thought Jesus was saying something to the affect of "Let Caesar keep his laws!" as in good god-fearing people don't have to worry about Caesar's laws because they have a lot more to gain from obeying God's laws, given the choice, if the two are contradictory. Upon further inspection, I see that I got that interpretation out of nowhere, since the whole question was whether it was lawful (under God's laws) to pay a tax to Caesar. And since it is Caesar's image on the coins, Jesus said they should pay the coins to Caesar. So how come Churches don't pay taxes in the U.S.? Different topic, altogether!

Anyway, the original point stands, the bible (including the book of Mark) is full of all kinds of promotion of anarchy, I thought I had one more example to add, but I didna. My mistake. I'm just glad I made the mistake here in infidel-friendly territory, or I would never hear the end of it!

Thanks!

Jen

VivaHedone · 02-21-2003, 01:24 PM

Even if Jesus did say to obey laws, my point is that he never gives man the authority to punish lawbreakers - so non-Christians could still break the law.

Rhea · 02-21-2003, 01:31 PM

I agree completely.

By the way, don't leave home without it...
www.biblegateway.com

Very nicely done site and the search features are quite handy, as is the comparison of different translations.

02-21-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JenniferD

Anyway, the original point stands, the bible (including the book of Mark) is full of all kinds of promotion of anarchy, I thought I had one more example to add, but I didna. My mistake. I'm just glad I made the mistake here in infidel-friendly territory, or I would never hear the end of it!

Jen

You are right and I am still wrong if you think I speak for 'Christians.' Fact is I don't and would never hold any mistakes against you. Believe it or not, I have matured and I am now a 'lover.'

Ensign Steve · 02-21-2003, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
You are right and I am still wrong if you think I speak for 'Christians.' Fact is I don't and would never hold any mistakes against you. Believe it or not, I have matured and I am now a 'lover.'

I hope you don't think I meant I wouldn't hear the end of it from you, personally. I didn't even know you were Christian (Catholic, right?) until after I made that post. I just meant if I went around incorrectly asserting stuff about the bible on a non-infidel board, I would expect to get pounced upon. Not because I think Christians are that way, but because I think there are some poeple who are that way. I just feel a lot safer spewing my point of few in a forum that specifically caters to that point of view. There's a reason I hang out here, I am not brave.

Have a great day!

Jen

02-20-2003, 02:53 PM	#1
VivaHedone Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 146	Religion is Anarchy Some Bible quotes (or nearly quotes): 'Turn the other cheek', 'Do not resist evil men', 'If someone sues you for your tunic, then give him you cloak as well', 'Do not judge others'. Surely the clear and unambiguous message is: Accept the wrongs done to you on Earth, because only God can punish wrongdoers, and will do so after death. Surely this means that all law enforcement systems violate Christian teachings? Also, we would just have to let Osama bin Laden take over the Earth. But then Christianity would be abolished, and any new children would have no exposure to it, thereby casting an entire generation into sin. If a truly Christian system was in place, anyone wishing to abolish the religion would have to be allowed to. Does this sound like a wise teaching to anyone? Besides, you try and tell a fundamentalist Christian that they're really an anarchist...

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02-20-2003, 03:59 PM	#2
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	Man, why don't I keep my bible with me at all times, like a good fundie? I mean atheist! I don't know where it is, but at some point in the bible (probably in the New Testament ) Jesus told his followers that they should obey the laws of the land, and when asked what to do if the laws of the land contradict god's laws, he replied, "Let Caesar's laws be Caesar's." Meaning you need to break the law of the land if it is contradictory to his. Sounds pretty straightforward to me! Unfortunately, this may be the kind of thinking that let's women get away with drowning their babies in bathtubs. Jen

02-20-2003, 04:02 PM	#3
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Just opposite I think, obey Caesar first: "Render unto Caesar what is due to him" or somehting like that? Yeah, bathtubs are bad and Ithink thay should have warnings on them.

02-20-2003, 05:52 PM	#6
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	Okay, you were right. This is the whole verse, from the New American Standard Bible: Mark 12:17: And Jesus said to them, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." and they were amazed at Him. (amazed?) All this time I thought Jesus was saying something to the affect of "Let Caesar keep his laws!" as in good god-fearing people don't have to worry about Caesar's laws because they have a lot more to gain from obeying God's laws, given the choice, if the two are contradictory. Upon further inspection, I see that I got that interpretation out of nowhere, since the whole question was whether it was lawful (under God's laws) to pay a tax to Caesar. And since it is Caesar's image on the coins, Jesus said they should pay the coins to Caesar. So how come Churches don't pay taxes in the U.S.? Different topic, altogether! Anyway, the original point stands, the bible (including the book of Mark) is full of all kinds of promotion of anarchy, I thought I had one more example to add, but I didna. My mistake. I'm just glad I made the mistake here in infidel-friendly territory, or I would never hear the end of it! Thanks! Jen

02-21-2003, 01:24 PM	#7
VivaHedone Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 146	Even if Jesus did say to obey laws, my point is that he never gives man the authority to punish lawbreakers - so non-Christians could still break the law.

02-21-2003, 01:31 PM	#8
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	I agree completely. By the way, don't leave home without it... www.biblegateway.com Very nicely done site and the search features are quite handy, as is the comparison of different translations.

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