Proctors_Gambit

A friend of mine, Jenny, is a Christian.
She told me and a few other friend that she was in need of a car due to the fact that she was moving.
She said she had been praying for some weeks that God would provide her with a car and biggetty-bam, a person from her church, Ben, was going overseas and lent her his car for 6 months.
Praise God Right?
...
As I always do in these situations I kept my mouth shut, talking about religion with Christians, even when they are your friends can turn into a bit of a shit fight.
But my thoughts dwelled on the situation and I got to thinking.

I came up with 2 possible scenarios:
1. Ben lent her the car out of the goodness of his heart knowing she needed it.
2. God provided her with a car and used Ben to do so.

In the case of the first scenario, there certainly wasn't an answer to prayer, God had nothing to do with it, it was just a kind human gesture.

In the second scenario we have to ponder...
Did Ben have any say in the matter, was it his choice, did God effectively remove his free choice and make him give Jenny the car.

The same logic can be applied to most prayerful situations.

Someone prays for money for food, money arrives, was the person who donated it forced to donate it by God, removing their free will? How else would God be responsible for the delivery of the cash?

Any christians have a response, how do you atribute prayerful delivery of items to God without removing the free will of the giver.

Naturally, 'Devils Advocate' athiests may answer as well.

Cheers


-gambit

orac

Many children pray to not be beaten to death by their parents.

God says "no, you can't have what you want."

Can anyone seriously argue that God would answer a prayer requesting use of a car, and ignore all those prayers for something important?

It seems fairly obvious that either God is one sick and twisted pervert, or that he did not in fact answer that prayer, even though she had some good luck.

Btw, some people try to use the freewill defense for why God lets children die. Why do they all run away and hide when God personally intervenes to ensure someone has a car so they can move house? What happened to poor Jenny's free will to move her stuff on her own?

Sabine Grant

Salut Proctor's Gambit... here is another alternative which does not involve the alienation of "free will" in the case of Ben. The believer prays to God not only for requests and petitions. He will also pray to be changed and guided in God's Will. It is a process not a telepathic command from God where God deprives a human being from a choice. It is more so like an inspiration. In any case, your friend was relieved from her burden and thru Ben's intervention in her life. Maybe Ben's goodness was inspired by his own prayer as he asked to be part of God's Will?
Something good came out of both of their interactions with God... so what is the complain?
Should any act of goodness be demeaned if the people involved choose to attribute that goodness to their God? Is there only one acceptable way to you to do any good? I hope not...

my dog earl

Here's a scenerio which only involves one person receiving an answered prayer. He really believes this happened.

My christian friend was working on his car motor, had the motor all apart, rebuilt it and was in the process of putting it together, when he dropped a bolt into somewhere where it was almost impossible to reach without taking the motor apart again. He tried for an hour unsuccesfully and was getting very mad. His wife saw this and put her arm around him and asked him if he asked God for help. He said he didn't and so they both prayed for god to help him with this bolt. I'm serious, I couldn't make this up. Sure enough, within moments the bolt was retreived. You be the judge. Sheesh

Proctors_Gambit

OK, so God worked by approaching Ben in his prayers and telling him that the best way to please him is to lend his car to Jen.
Thus Ben was not doing anything 'nice' of his own fruition, but actually simply obeying God, to not lend her the car would be a sin on his part in fact.
But under your model only Christians would be able to respond, as only Christians would have asked God what to do.

What if a non christian friend had given her the car?

Would that have been God commandeering their will to perform his bidding or would it have been simply a matter of their niceness as a person?

-Gambit

Sabine Grant

It is unfortunate that you changed the meaning of what I was expressing. You seem to take issue with two believers choosing to attribute to God an act of goodness. I see no reason personaly to take any issue with ANY act of goodness no matter who originated it. I focus on the result of the action rather than needing to demean its value because it is spiritualy or non spiritualy attributed.
As far as I am concerned and as a christian I attribute any act of goodness from anyone to God's influence on the human mind. It is pleasing to me to find the presence of God in human goodness. So I am not limited by who the person is...I am happy with the result. None has to carry a label or believe for me to be thankful.

So if your question is whether or not I value the act of goodness of a non believer, I do. As I value any act of goodness... and before I become critical of other people's goodness and what inspires them, I try to look at my own failures.

Starboy

From this I would sumise that an act of "evil" would also be the result of god's influence on the human mind.

Starboy

Sabine Grant

Salut Starboy... that is if you wish to attribute it to God. A matter of personal choice again.

Eric H

At mass we are asked to pray for many causes, and these same causes come up frequently. When you pray often enough for something to happen and if it is a cause that you wish to see rectified, you then feel that you should try and do something about it yourself.

We are asked to pray for the sick and dying, and this can motivate some people to go and visit, to see if they can lend moral support in some way.

We are asked to pray for the needy, and when there are collections for these groups, some people are motivated to give generously in the hope that others may benefit.

When there are pleas to help people in third world countries some people are even motivated to organize aid and take it over themselves.

This is the one positive aspect of prayer that I perceive for myself. But it will always need more people to pray and it will always need more people to be affected by what they pray for, me included.


Christ said the harvest is great but the workers are few, and so there will always seem to be a great injustice in this world.

peace

Eric