raistlinjones

I don't know where you live, but it IS illegal here in Michigan. Well, technically, you're allowed to be gay - as long as your restrict this to just wanting to have sex with those of your same gender. Anal and oral sex (the only kinds of sex that are available to them) are both illegal. In addition, none of the benefits available to heterosexual monogamous relationships (like getting married) are available to gays here either. For all intents and purposes, it may as well be illegal, even if it technically is not.

dk

I support vice or blue laws under the principle of subsidiarity, not federal dictum. The facts on homosexuality speak for themselves. The Federal Govt. through broadcast media, corporations, higher education, elite opinion makers, public education, constitutional courts and social engineers sow havoc throughout the society serving the interests of huge bureaucracies, corporations and special interests. The Federal Govt. primary responsibility is to preserve the Union by building infrastructure, negotiating treaties, defending the borders and keeping multi-national corporations & big labor in check (at home and abroad). The Feds should hold local communities responsible for public health, public education and social justice wherever possible. The Feds need to quite running roughshod over State and Local jurisdictions. If we are to remain a free people, “we the people” must be weaned off the tit of Federalism because the Federal Government isn’t a wet nurse or surrogate womb, nor should it be. The escalatory rhetoric and acts of social warfare consummate with the Great Society breed a level of apathy, dependency and decadence that is unsustainable and divisive.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

Mageth

dk:
But if gaydom is bad then God has given several heads up.

So you're saying a virus that found a convenient vector to spread in particular segments of the U.S. population (including the subset of gay men with promiscuous lifestyles) is a warning sign from god?

What about those who have contracted HIV through other vectors, such as blood transfusions, heterosexual sex, even birth? Are we to consider them god's "collateral damage?" Or does god have it in for hemophiliacs as well?

What about those diseases that find convenient vectors in mosquito-infested regions, like the West Nile virus and malaria? What about those many diseases that find convenient vectors in children (esp. in third world countries)?

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

G V

"dk: .... We can thank the fraudulent research and/or personal bias of Margaret Sanger, Kinsey, Margaret Mead, SC ..."

Which of many possible names does "SC" refer?

dk have you read any of the books by those scientists?

Or where did you get the idea their research was fraudulent?

Vesica

As a Christian, I will attempt to address some of the many Q's asked here:
Of course this is completly from my own perspective.

First, raistlinjones :
I would personally like to request that you stop speaking for me as a Christian since I am appalled by some of what you have written that I am Quote-UNquote 'about/believe/endorse'.

You did hit on an important issue in the beginning of your first post and then abandoned it:
I feel that the word 'me' there is very important...There are a lot of scriptures telling me personally about choices I can make and not as many telling me to run around and judge others.

Should homosexuality be a crime/illegal/punishable?

Leviticus speaks to the Isrealite community...I am not one of them...I do not live in a nation where religon and State are one and the same...Therefore, No. I have never found any passage in the Bible suggesting we should all run off and start our own countries. I do not think the Bible gives any real tips for setting up a 'Christian government.'

I think for this question we need to consider why we punish murder and theft...We also punish rape to a much greater extent and with much more flexible definitions than in the OT. If we start punishing homosexuality are we also going to stop recognizing spousal rape or incest as criminal acts?? If we are I am moving!

Is anyone suggesting we punish these things because God looked down and said 'Bad People'?? Or do we punish these sorts of activities because they contribute to disorder and a lack of safety in society? Is this an issue of moral good or social good? Are they always the same? I would say no. I fail to see how my quality of life or my ability to impart 'the right morals' in my hypothetical children is affected by people participating in realtionships with members of the same sex.

Though it has not been specifically addressed
I think the following question is important as the underlying idea is rampant in these posts:
Is homosexuality a 'bigger' sin than murder or theft?

My Bible does not include a Top Ten lists of the big sins...I realize sins are ranked in some Chrsitian theologies but I can't find that idea in the source...I believe that lying, jelously, hatred and bitterness are on par with murder and all the rest. And there is that convient passage about 'He who is without sin casting the first stone'. I can find little authority for me to ignore the greatest commandement (Love one another) and run about telling people what is wrong with them...That is none of my business.

I do realize that these views are not held by all Christians but I think they are Biblically based...

Vesica

For the record:

I find the ideas that prostitution is a criminal act and that AIDS is some sort of divine retribution too ridiculous to even address!

excreationist

dk:
Sorry but I don't understand those terms... do you think gay sex should be illegal or not? And what about prostitution?
See <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+13:1-5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref= on" target="_blank">Romans 13:1-5</a> - "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves..."
I think that is saying that the laws of governments are always just... or at least God wants things the way they are...

raistlinjones:
Thanks for that info about anal and oral sex being banned in Michigan...

Vesica:
I'm not sure I understood you properly, but you seem to be saying that you are a Christian and that gay sex and prostitution shouldn't be illegal. Near the bottom of page 1 I also quoted Romans 1:26-27, 32 which shows that Paul is against gay sex too.
Do you think the laws that God gave to the Israelites throughout the OT were bad laws or were they totally perfect and infinitely wise? (Or merely adequate) For some examples see Exodus 21:20-21 about the treatment of those who harshly beat their slaves, Numbers 15:32-36 about a man who gathered wood on the Sabbath and 2 Kings 2:23-24 about God's response to some youths who mocked Elisha.

dk

dk: I don’t think the Federal Government should criminalize MSM (male sex w/ males) or FSF (female sex w/ females). Nowhere in the US Constitution does it mention gay & lesbian rights or give the Feds govt. the power to criminalize MSM or FSF acts, so the power is reserved for states and local governments to exercise.
dk: - Paul goes on to explain what he means, but you have to read the next paragraph, Romans 13:7 “Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.” I interpret, "“there is no authority except that which God has established.” to mean God’s Law is binding on government authorities.

Paul follows up by naming the commandments, and says, “Love does no evil to the neighbor, hence, love is the fulfillment of the law”.

• Matthew 22:21 "Caesar's," they said to Him. Then He said to them, "Therefore, give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
• Luke 20:25 "Well then," He (Jesus) told them, "give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
• Matthew 5:34 But I tell you, don't take an oath at all: either by heaven, because it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, because it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither should you swear by your head, because you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37 But let your word 'yes' be 'yes,' and your 'no' be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.

In fact I think there’s a strong case that Rousseau’s “Social Contract” doesn’t bind Christians, because it implies a defacto oath to the Republic.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

G V

IF RCs care about the atlar boys, then why haven't they shut down the pederasts houses and other notorious venues?

excreationist

dk:
Hmmmm... then I guess swearing to God and the Bible in courts is un-Christian too...