haverbob

I am probably far less scholarly than just about anyone else in this discussion group. However, I want my views to be ripped apart by the intelligent people of this forum. So please, have a field day. It's on me. I'll thank you. In response to a recently a question posted on this site about George Smith's hypothesis, i wrote a response from a different angle than I noticed that anyone else did (could be wrong, maybe someone else did). The response was supposed to answer for or againt George Smith's conclusion which can be summed up in the following quote

“But from a Christian perspective, God – the omnipotent creator of the natural universe – must bear ultimate responsibility for these occurrences, and God’s deliberate choice of these evil phenomena qualifies him as immoral.”

My very simplistic response (again not scholarly) is below. please challenge it:

Let's attack the very root of both sides of the argument rather then answer for or against a particular side. Everyone can agree that evil is not an object or event. It is a perception. Actually, to put it more accurately, it is an OPINION of an object or event. That is a very important distinguishment. Therefore something cannot be classified as good or evil until we apply that opinion or judgement to it In fact, the classification itself does not exist until we create it (or at least perceive it if one wants to argue that evil exists on it's own, with or without our awareness of it). Still the same point. We need to acknowledge evil before it exists in our perception. If we do not perceive evil, is there still evil? HOW COULD WE ASK? WHY WOULD WE CARE? Evil exists because we accept and apply the concept. Therefore evil is our creation, not God's and the whole argument becomes moot at the very root. God did not force us to see evil. I'm not a big Bible person, but if you look at the Bible through this lens, it becomes very different. That was what the fruit of knowledge opened up to Adam and Eve. It was the awareness of good and evil. So now they had OPINIONS about their surroundings and their situation. Surely the Garden of Eden was not a place or else we would have returned to it by now (or at least identified the place that we can't return to). It was a PERCEPTION and one that lacked any OPINIONS. God did not create evil for us because he did not show us evil. He created free will (so the Bible says) and that was what caused US to create evil. It could have been different. So who is responsible? We chose it even when we were advised not to. The advisement itself was a subjective action on God's part that went as far as he could without actually taking away free will. Therefore God has no responsibilty for evil in our lives and is not immoral unless one wants to argue that providing free will is immoral. So again the argument is moot. Next logical question. Why did God allow Satan to tempt us or even to have contact with us? Is that not showing us evil and therefore evil was created FOR us (not by us) at that very moment? It depends on whether you think Satan is evil (and it takes an opinion to do so). My guess is that he is actually not. If Satan served no purpose for God, then why would God not end Satan's existence at the beginning? So surely he does and therefore cannot be considered purely evil. What purpose? To create the existence of free will. You cannot have free will without having choices. Without Satan, you cannot have free will. Thank God for Satan. In closing, let me make a larger more encompassing statement that many people find difficult to grasp. "The only thing wrong with our existence is our opinion of it."

rainbow walking

Hi Haverbob,
There are two major shapers of our opinions and normative valuations: Our mortality and our emotions. We adjudge everything from these actualities. We desire to exist and to exist happily. From that point forward all our choices are an extension of these desires. Good and evil are the measuring instruments that allow us to determine how closely we are, in any given situation, to attaining these desires.

In other words the primary value forging culminates from our desire to live. The next most important value forging culminates in our desire to exist free from fear. Fear is the anti-thesis to happiness.

That is why the myth of A&E expresses the first consequence of "knowing" good and evil would be the introduction of death, or one's own mortality, and the second consequence of the apprehension of one's own mortality would be fear. Note that A&E, after indulging in the forbidden fruit, bagn taking measures to preserve their lives from what they percieved to be the most immediate threat to their existence. First their nakedness to the elements was addressed and then their status as illegal aliens in a garden not of their own creation compelled them to hide from its owner and creator, after having failed to comply with his one contingency.

Philosoft

Quoth haverbob: He created free will (so the Bible says) and that was what caused US to create evil.

So God creates a world in which evil actions are possible, and creates a decision making system whereby some choices will entail evil, is this correct? I'm trying to understand where God's responsibility ends.

haverbob

God is responsible for giving Humans free will, freedom of choice and that is where his responsibility ends. Is the granting of free will immoral? That was the point that I was trying to make. If we use our free will in a manner that ends up causing us pain, is that God's fault? One could argue the fact that he would be immoral or unloving by denying us free will or freedom of choice.

haverbob

Sorry for using e-mail. Like I said in the e-mail, I didn't figure out the easiest and most correct way to have this discussion. I ill use the discussion board from now on.

telerion

Haverbob it seems you are claiming that evil is a value judgement created by humans.

I would like to turn it around just a bit. What is good? Is it also a value judgement created by humans? Eating of the tree granted knowlege of both good and evil. So if we used our free will to create good and evil after eating of the tree, then upon what grounds did God claim that His creation was "good?" Or if in that instance God made a judgement of quality, then was God "good" before the fall? Finally, why did He call it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if it was really the true of say "formulate your own subjective opinions"?

It seems far more likely (according to the Bible anyway) that God was the author of both good and evil, and that A & E only understood His standards for good and evil after eating of the tree.

Sorry, I am afraid this is not the scholarly ass-whoopin you were craving. Maybe some one else will oblige you.

mosaic

Good and evil are subjevtive concepts not absolutes. God is neither moral or immoral in the human sense but an authority. He simpyl decrees something god and if we disagree, we suffer. From my level, he's immoral and evil precisely because it allows me to recognize how evil it is and as a result suffer eternally for it. I dont care what ethereal reason it has for creating a world which it has to periodically destroy because it allows "evil" to take place.

To answer the question directly, yes god is responsible. One, we dont have freewill since their is only one righteous path.Two, god knew exactly what its action would lead to yet it did nothing else to avoid it. Its all one big game and moreover a thinly veuiled threat.

And no sensible person will argue that god, by preventing us from ever suffering eternally in hellfire would be immoral. Hell is the only option if you dont go to paradide. I really dont see the neccesity in allowing people's own subjective decisions to lead them to unspeakable torment. Who but god values the freedom to suffer eternally? In a human sense, freewill is important but in the ethereal world, why is it neccesary? Is it neccesary to experience evil to appreciate the ethereal? But we cant escape hell so what do we learn? We're punished eternally because we dont recognize the ethereal significance of finite actions. Utterly ridiculous.

Still more questions, why couldnt we be secular etherealits? That is, love paradise for what it is and not yearning for something outside it? Why create faulty beings that yearn for meaning outside their domain? And why is allowing them to see "evil" the only option here?

diana

And he did take responsibility for evil:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Why argue about it? Oh yeah...because someone's going to want to claim that God is still not immoral, somehow. That's right.

I think this is where they leap off into defending the idea that evil is necessary for free will*, which is in turn necessary for...something, which is in turn necessary for something else, which--GLORY! PRAISE HIS NAME!--is all part of The Ineffable Plan. Yes, that's it.

*As Thomas Metcalf points out routinely, free will doesn't need evil. We can have a choice between good things and still have free will, and no one gets hurt. But he said it much more scholarly-like, of course.

d

haverbob

Your right. Not quite the ass whooping that I had hoped for. I hope everyone understands why I'm truly asking for an ass whooping. If I get one, that means I can change. If I don't, then I don't change. Usually change is one of the most irritating and scary things that one can do, but I like it. Usually, people are not afraid of the unknown as they think. They are actually afraid of change. How can one be afraid of what they don't know? Instead they are afraid of what they know and they are afraid that someone will take it from them (change). Yes, turn the question around. GREAT !!! Creative thinking that steps out of the box. Okay, God can claim his creation as good (although I'm not sure that he (or it) REALLY does). Good or bad (or evil) is an opinion based on the eye of the beholder. If evil exists, then that means there can be evil people. Do they see themselves as evil? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the absence of opinion, how does something become good or bad (or evil)? In the absence of opinion, what is left? Nothing but WHAT IS. How can "WHAT IS" be wrong or evil? Takes an opinion to make a judgement on good or evil. Some people would say, at this stage of the argument, that there can only be good. That is what's left over when you cast out the evil. Well maybe, maybe not, but who cares? Our stupid possesive minds, that's who cares. Get it? You create good and you create evil (and believe it or not, it's all to your benefit or detriment). It's ALWAYS about you. We are ALWAYS getting something out of the deal (whether we realize it not). What's the benefit of participating in this forum? I would bet, for the most part, it's to confirm or our point of view as right. We ALWAYS want to be right because "wrong" is bad (at least according to our opinion). It's only when one wakes up that they prefer to be wrong. I would say that God is neither good or bad. God just is. If it's not bad or evil, then perhaps it's good, or perhaps it doesn't even need to be good at that stage. Why would we struggle to put a label on something that has supposedly has no beginning (and that's much harder to understand than the concept of no end). Because we think that we need opinions and labels for everything (God knows what we would possibly do without them). We must fragment reality with our desires, which is why words are so useful. And hence we are back to original sin.

diana

So you think good and evil are subjective and not objective, then?

I assume you speak for yourself here. I participate in this forum to put my ideas to the test. Of course, I'd rather be right in the first place, but once you overcome your own ego, it suddenly doesn't matter what position you hold entering a discussion. What matters is fairly weighing the facts and choosing the answer that best answers the question.

And I would say, "Welcome to the EoG forum, where you don't make statements like 'God just is.'"

The bible, which you've already stated you aren't so big on, states that God is good. I'm not sure where you get your belief.

d