happyboy

why is it that theists (especially creationists) are so against genetic experiments like cloning? a clone is no different, really, from an identical twin: you don't see many theists proclaiming that identical twins have no souls, now do you?

but cloning is only the tip of the iceburg. gene splicing lets us do all sorts of wild things, and as our knowledge progresses, even wilder things are down the road. we might not need natural selection anymore; if we need a new charaacteristic, we can create it in a lab.

is it because we can now do things that for thousands of years theists ascribed only to God? is the fact that we can create new species of life so threatening to them that must limit our knowledge?

happyboy

pz

I don't think this is a specifically theistic position. Many of the scientists who are doing this work are theists.

It is a position taken by many lunkheaded ignorami, who happen to be theists of a particularly intransigent stripe. Theism isn't the cause of their dislike of learning and science, it is just a secondary symptom.

happyboy

i,for one, am excited about the possibilities of cloning, embryonic stem cell research, and other genetic experiments. the possibilities are limitless, if only the religious majority in this country would stand aside and let us do our research in peace.

happyboy

Sabine Grant

Hello happyboy!

Genetical manipulation is not a new topic. German scientists were heading in that direction during the Third Reich. Like any discovery, there are dangers when it comes to how it can be exploited for the wrong purposes. It is possible that some theists ( such as myself) want to see cloning legislated to insure that it can only be used for medical research to facilitate the production of stem cells and organs to be donated.

The problem is also the experimentation.... at a time when experimenting on animals is subject to controversy, you can imagine how controversial it can be to experiment on human subjects.

In fact one does not need to be a theist to express the same reservations as mine. We need not to meditate on the topic of souls to want to see guarantees that the research will be monitored closely and purely for the purpose of preventing what I call the " Frankenstein syndrom". The perspective of human beings engineered and programmed soly for the purpose of serving our society frigthens me. The theme was already presented in "This Brave New World". I value the human spirit within each individuality. I fear that we would see a rapid loss of individuality and uniqueness if we were to engineener pre programmed human beings.

Imagine a society where pre programmed thinking is included in genetical manipulation. That is where cloning could lead in the next step.

pz

No, they weren't. You are confusing eugenics with cloning, gene therapy, etc., techniques that were not possible the 1930s-1940s. The methods advocated by the Third Reich were actually nothing but simple-minded ideas borrowed from the hustbandry of domestic animals; it's also inappropriate to 'credit' them to the Nazis, since these same ideas were even more popular in the US at the time, and were first promoted by English scientists.That you call that? Since when did you acquire ownership of that old cliche?Cloning people is unethical and a waste of time. However, your cartoonish vision of what cloned people would be like is most definitely not a reason to avoid the practice.

Cloned people would not be lacking in individuality. They would not be "pre-programmed". There is no known way to plug in a mode of thinking into the DNA. That's just your fear and ignorance speaking.

Sabine Grant

PZ : why is it unethical?

The agressive tone is not necessary by the way....as far as claiming that there would be no way to preprogram an individual, many were uncredulous to the plans of a machine that would go underwater drawn by Leonardo da Vinci.

The Nazis were heading to the direction of genetical manipulation.. there is ample evidence as one wanders thru the pictures and documents posted in the memorial hall at Dachau. The comparaison was a necessity to show how dangerous of a tool it can be if in the wrong hands. Experiments were conducted on jewish females to observe the possibility of conception between humans and animals. The interest was to manipulate the human race. Eventualy the ultimate Nazi agenda was to select genes which would promote the " super race". The intent was to manipulate human genes. You may call it any name you wish.... the concept is quite similar.

I did not realize that someone else had already used the term Frankenstein syndrom. It just shows that similar thinking will engender similar expression.

I disagree with your classification that my comments are the product of my fear and ignorance. Your perception is your perception but I believe that what I brought up has some validity.

pz

I've got news for you there, too -- most of da Vinci's more speculative machines wouldn't work. Also, pointing to one guy who had some wild ideas that sometimes worked very well does not mean that every crackpot idea out there could succeed.

And whaddaya know, I just posted an article on behavior in clones.

No. That was not science, it was not an inquiry into genetics -- it was simple bigotry and butchery. There is no evidence anywhere that the Nazi extermination of the Jews in any way represented a research program (except, perhaps, in more economical ways to kill large numbers of people), or that it advanced scientific research in any way. The advances that were made in molecular biology research in the 50s and 60s were based on methodologies that had absolutely no relationship to the policies of murder perpetrated by the Third Reich, and it is simply ridiculous to argue that they were groping towards the knowledge we have now. They simply were not. They were killing people.
On what basis do you claim that it has some validity? This bizarre idea of armies of unthinking clones might have some basis in bad science-fiction movies from the cold war era, but it certainly has no basis in legitimate science.

Sabine Grant

I believe that my thinking has some validity in the sense that there is a potential for the loss of individuality. I signified clearly that I value the human spirit within each individuality.

In terms of scientific progress, neither you or I can erradicate the possibility of manipulating the thought process of an individual.

Never did I project the idea of an army of mindless clones such as seen in SF movies... you interpreted it as such.

I am still awaiting why you consider cloning unethical and a waste of time.

. I maintain that the Nazi's experiments on human subjects had the purpose of exploring ways to create the "super race". The butchering of jewish individuals and others was the result of the overall hatred against them. Behind the butchers was the horrifying agenda to promote scientific research and jews happened to be the target of opportunity for experimentation. In Dachau jewish subjects were used to experiment on the reactions of the human body exposed to various temperatures. The purpose was to develop better equipment for the German pilotes if immerged in cold water. Denying that jewish people were used as human subjects for scientific and also medical experimentation is denying history.


I do not know what your source of documentation is as far as the absence of a scientific agenda in the experimentations conducted on jewish people. Mine is based on talking with survivors of one camp or the other and as I stated earlier the ample documentation presented in the Dachau museum which presents evidence of those experimentations. I doubt either source would be erroneous. So I will continue to rely on them to form my own opinion on that topic.

happyboy

*sigh* your ignorance is showing, sabine. i did NOT state nazi-esque experimentation was something i supported. i am NOT in favor of producing super-soliders so some palpatine-wannabe can "conquer the galaxy" or some sci-fi crap like that.

what i AM saying is that cloning is a technology that ought to be explored. think about it, what if we could grow just organs? the possibilities in cloning are endless!

and as for genetic "tinkering": in addition to the weird stuff, it can also cure diseases that right now are uterly beyond our reach.

yes, this technology could unleash all sorts of unpleasantness. but so can nuclear power, and we have yet to wipe ourselves out. don't fear the future; embrace it with caution and self-awareness!

happyboy

Sabine Grant

Happyboy.... calling someone ignorant because you do not agree with their opinions does not quite fit the billet of freethinking.

Reread my first response in terms of what I consider valuable in research in cloning. It appeaors we agree on the terms of advancing medical research. Just so you do not waste your time arguing with me on something we agree....