luvluv

If God were not limited by the logically possible, the answer to your question would be both yes and no.

LITERALLY. Both yes and no.

Not, mind you, yes at some times and conditions and no at others.

But both yes and no SIMELTANEOUSLY under ANY AND ALL CONDITIONS, at ALL TIMES.

If you commit yourself to the notion that God can do the logically impossible talking about God becomes totally absurd.

Jobar

Watch out, luvluv. Those last two posts sounded remarkably like Zen riddles.

To use logic, we have to have precisely defined terms. That's why all the insistence that we must first define what God is, before we can apply logic to the idea.

That's why all our objections about the ways we hear God defined, of course. If you can't even be clear about exactly what it is you believe in, how (and why) are we to also believe it?

luvluv:If you commit yourself to the notion that God can do the logically impossible talking about God becomes totally absurd.

Ah, grasshopper, now you gain wisdom!

long winded fool

God is omnipotent. Therefore He can do anything.

Can an omnipotent God create a rock so big that even He can't lift it? No.

Can God make a mistake? No.

Can God do something that contradicts omnipotence? No.

God can do anything. Can God do anything that God can't do? No.

Scumble and Darth Dane hit the nail on the head. The inability of God to create a rock so big that he can't lift it is not about the power of God. It is about the ability for a thing to exist outside of God's power. It can't exist, nor can God make it exist preceisely because he is omnipotent. If he weren't, then he logically could. Since he is, he cannot. It is a very confusing way of wording a question about omnipotence. It sounds like God is the subject of the question, but he is not. It is not a logical contradiction to state that an omnipotent God absolutely can't do anything that only non-omnipotent things could do. Only non-omnipotent things can possibly coexist with things that are outside of their power. So the answer to the well-known "rock paradox" is simply no, and no conclusion can be arrived at regarding God's existence from this arguement.

luvluv

Point being, Jobar, that if God can do the logically impossible then it would be absurd to be a theist or an atheist.

No coherent reason could be given for either choice.

ScumDog

long winded fool, that is confusing so would you mind explaining it? Sounds like mumble-jumble play of words, much like philosophy. The fact is, omnipotence is a paradox of its own, and cannot exist. It is self-defeating concept, and wrongfully used to be attributed to a god because that god could not exist. Any being attributed with omnipotence cannot exist. Like perfection, it does not exist. But people attribute it to a god and try to work their way from there.

Jobar

So are you going to try that argument, luvluv? Hey, *I* have no difficulty in proclaiming both theism and atheism absurd- why, if it weren't for all the theists starting this fuss, do you think we'd give a hoot?

I'm pretty sure you aren't- and that's a shame, because I think it might offer a swift path to enlightenment.

Zthinker07

Can you explain why perfection does not exist? Any reasons?

xorbie

I think the point I was getting at (yes, I'm even confusing myself now) is that a being can be omni-potent. For isntance, can God create a rock so big he can't lift it? No, because the rock is not an item that logically exists. Can God make a mistake? I think that assuming you mean mistake as "something contrary to the desired effect" and I am not sure God is supposed to have desires... but I won't really go there.

I think the interesting question would be "can God make himself cease to exist"?

Theli

If god creates a rock to heavy for himself to lift, then he has created an external condition that limits his powers. It's not a logical impossibility, I can create a rock too heavy for me to lift, just give me some explosives and a mountain. The impossibility in God's case lies inheritly in the attribute omnipotence as it would require the ability to overcome his own abilities (they cannot be infinite). The rock example, however sounding abit juvenile and simpleminded points this out and is, I believe, a good argument.

long winded fool

Omnipotence is not a logical contradiction, though I don't see any reason to assume that it exists. The rock example can be logically transposed to the question "Can anything exist outside of the power of omnipotence?" If omnipotence is infinite power, then the answer must always be no. God cannot do anything that only things with finite power can do. It is confusingly worded because "God" is in the position of the subject of the question, yet, because of the infinite nature of omnipotence, everything but God is actually the focus. When dealing with infinite anything it is very easy to erroneously transpose the universal with the particular and think that you've come accross a paradox.

There are things that a being with infinite power cannot do. It cannot do anything that only things with finite power can do. Sounds very much like a contradiction, but the contradictory interperetation inverts the universal and the particular. "Nothing exists beyond the infinite" is always a logical transposition of "God can't limit his own power," therefore the answer to "Can anything exist beyond the infinite?" or "Can God make a rock so big that even He can't lift it?" can logically be 'no.'