Paradisedreams2

Buckster,

I read your post, I understand, I have copied it off to read as I take my daughter to the park. One question (or observation) I can comment on is this one...

He said "also" in the verse saying He speaks of similitudes.

My question to you is did he say "also" as in "I spoke literally BUT ALSO in similitudes"? Look back at the verses.

Its kinda like me saying I bought groceries for the kids but I "also" spoke this way to them (using a human argument) See?

There is no connection between literal interpretation (its not mentioned) along side of the "also" speaking of the similitudes. So I understand the questioning in regards to the word "also".

What I do like about speaking with you is that you are intelligent in your disputing and not poking fun for the "sole purpose" of poking fun of it. You see me believing in the scriptures that you think are a joke (and no wonder, I can't blame you especially how others have butchered them for the sole purpose of being right ignoring the hard things). You keep your arguments focused on the dispute a hand, and refute on the book alone. That is rare especially here.

I'll be back about naptime or this evening for the rest of my reply. But NO I would be VERY surprised if they found a "literal ark" anywhere. I don't take any of these things literally at all no matter what they say. Their sole purpose was to prophesy torward an "event", a "day", a "person".

lol! Your right I can't help but say "CHRIST" is in you well... Immanuel means God with us. But I don't feel the need to make you jump through hoops to get Him there. There are no requirements.

Ripping open pregnant women... NO if you get familiar with the words God uses you begin to see this. Run the word "pregnant" "fruit" "child", and "infant" through the online bible site. and just look them each connects to something other then what its speaking inside the similitude.

About taking things farther such as Ken... He really isn't but they link and melt together like butter for Him and he speaks way over my head at times. I'm familiar with the scriptures. So are others but if they are taking one route with them and another may take a literally way it would seem like heresy. You know what you do. If you want to test it out yourself.

Run out "goats" and "sheep" collect and print out all that info. See how the law sees how these should be considered. You'll see so many things attached to these... WONDERFUL. Now look at these alone and it starts to connect everything together melting it right into the day of the cross. Because the church can't see that the cross is the day and ALL prophesies are for that day they CANNOT allow them to melt together. To them Satan is some floating demon ready to devour them literally and is Gods greatest opponent. But the Serpent melts into God as well. The law melts into Him,The thousand years, the days (visions of evenings and mornings) melt into Him. The children melt into Him. Hell melts into Him. There ends up being nothing left at all that is not fulfilled till all you have is Him and this IS "Immanuel" which is to say "God with us".

Funny I saw someone here call Kens interpretation (not refuted by the way but made fun of) The interpretation itself leaves no doctrine, no belonging to some church, no man teaching you, nothing... Nothing left... EXACTLY what Athiests see as ridiculous to do is the VERY thing it confirms.

Its not a "doctrine" its seeing everything fulfilled. Not seeing it as such has christians going out in some pathectic sense of fear and duty to proclaim some Good news they know so little about (I was one of them). How stupid I was! I was a hypocrite spouting law and righteousness to others yet doubting all the time that I understood the whole thing. I was reading it and projecting "myself" into every page when its not speaking about me. I cringe at my own stupidy but then again I see it as growing in my understanding and bringing me to a much better place, where I don't have to say anything or "witness" in order to save a soul because I know what has already been done. The only thing that torments me is seeing a bunch of people proclaiming anything but good news speaking of a good God that will fry your ass... How can anybody believe in that? So when others DON'T bite I see the Truth in that individual not biting on that crock of shit see? And the ones biting are REALLY DOUBTING IT but are not saying so.

So in short... Linking these all together is not "doctrine" but fulfillment with no strings, or hoops to jump through. No rules, regulations, no need to follow any one. There is no possible foul motive. In essense your free, enjoy life and do as your conscience dictates.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

Paradisedreams2

Buckster,
I had a moment here and read some of your questions which is the same question. Absolutely not no way do I believe in the bible as a "literal" story. I cannot say it is literal when it says its a "similitude". I literally believe its a similitude, I have no option in the book given to take it any other way. It says Adam was a similitude, Melchezedik is a similitude (run that word) run the word "after the patern" "according to this word"... That type thing.

Now look at this verse
Psalm 144:12 That our sons [may be] as plants grown up in their youth; [that] our daughters [may be] as corner stones, polished [after] the SIMILITUDE of a palace.

Christ looked at a building saying see ye these stones (now read the above verse. Right where Christ is stating these things is a similitude and finds its fulfillment at the cross. The stones cast down.

"Our sons AS PLANTS" these are ripped up. You look at everything. Look at the post way above in the infant definition the scriptures define themselves, adding to themselves constantly. People seen as wood (look that one up) People seen as stones, coals of fire, as plants, as grass (all men are as the grass) Look up people, people as the waters which roar. Moses divides the water in similitude Jesus divides the people. He is THAT Moses. God will declare to Abraham His children shall be "thus" stars, sand, GO ON THAT. Have you seen its treasure? Do you know what it means? "Follow it" it will take you there as you start to realize "how" he speaks you begin to hear his voice (not a literal audible voice for crying out loud lol! In that case check yourself into the nearest hospital lol!)

Buckster its FILLED with treasure. For instance He knows "the end from the Begining"... Is that statement there to impress you? what is "the end"? what is the "Begining"? Is it the begining of creation, yes!!! BUT NOT as its commonly taught. The end of the "old order" of things such as temple worship, tithes, offerings, EVERYTHING because in the similitudes they were never about THOSE THINGS and because others CONCRETED "the similitude" you get the VERY THING that repulses you. Like I said, "The solid form of a similitude is its SOLID (or concrete) FORM... we question it because it NEEDS TO BE QUESTIONED. The begining of the creation God speaks of is the CROSS and not some creatism veiwpoint. It has ONE person, event, and day to testify of and through 40 prophets did just that amazingly enough, hiding everything in various similitudes of "likeness" until the one who it prophesied of came and again this person Christ spoke once more in the same fashion speaking in parables about the hidden things of old and within three years they are consumed into their fulfillment whether other christians or other people in general don't know this or speak of it does not make it any less untrue.

I can understand a refute on a literal basis, even I refute it. Literal defies Science, I have a respect for Science and don't see the contradiction at all. Evolution not a problem. Hating to go to church? Not a problem (don't go). See? It AGREES with the Athiest and disagrees with its own proponents and this was the hardest thing I came to realize. The no "partiality" about God is absolutely true. Tell a christian that and its all over. On to every issue the bible supposedly speaks on but it doesn't why? Because he gave us a conscience and Himself and every turn for the worst will eventually see itself out in the end. But thats my opinion and makes great sense to me why these type of things aren't in the "Big black book". I should really refrain on my opinion, but I do have one You don't have to read the book either nothing is nessesary. The right way is in your heart but ofcourse you already knew that

I'm sorry... I get carried away I didn't mean to do that I do have a tendency to go on and on. Rolloing eyes at myself lol!

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

Buckster

Paradisedreams2,
Interesting that you used an analogy about buying groceries, as I saw the verse as a grocery list of ways that god claims to have communicated, none of which is mutually exclusive to the others, nor as a stand-alone statement that encompasses the entire text of the bible. Rather than using "BUT ALSO" (which is unecessary), I note the use of the word "and" between the things claimed in the verse. To demonstrate:

Here is the verse as written in Hosea:

"I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

Now, the verse as I literally read it:

god has:
1. Spoken by prophets
and
2. Multiplied visions
and
3. Used similitudes

And the verse as you interpret it (if I understand you correctly from the volumes you have written thus far):

"All god uses is similitudes." (Ken can prove it)

Taking the next logical step, if your (and Ken's) interpretation is correct, then the verse in question is also a similitude, and therefor not to be taken literally either! Then what meaning can it have? Allow me to demonstrate what I mean:

If your (and Ken's) interpretation is correct, the following 2 statements are both somehow true:
1. The bible's verses can not be taken literally. (What Hosea means, per you and Ken)
2. The first statement (Hosea verse itself) can not be taken literally, making the 1st statement false.

Do you see the problem? In computer programming, this is an infinite loop. There is no escape from it. It runs endlessly, with no way out of the dilemma.

Of course, you can say that the Hosea verse is the only verse that this doesn't apply to, but what could you base that on, since whatever it would be would also be subject to the same rules? And then you would have to qualify it as well. And so on, and so on, and so on, ad infinitum.

It has no end, you see? It's a logic problem that rapidly spirals inwardly downward toward certain implosion upon itself.

So, because of the "grocery list" presentation in the text itself and the logic problems it creates by your (and Ken's) interpretation, I find it impossible to make the leap you have from the text as written in Hosea over the wall of logic to an all-encompassing statement of how to read and interpret the bible in total exclusion of the history of the Hebrew Jews it portrays in the first place, purportedly written by them as it was happening, describing wars, rituals, laws, people, places, things and other events, like ripping open pregnant women.

In that case, I suppose we must perhaps "agree to disagree" at this point, unless you are open to changing your mind on this. I don't expect you to, nor that you will, and that's why I'd say we're pretty well done hashing the point. Yes?

Besides, I think it's taking us a bit off-track of the thread topic anyway, which is the ripping open of pregnant women, destruction of fetuses and killing of babies in the name of the Hebrew/Jewish/Christian god.

SO.....

Back on topic again, you have now made it clear to me that despite the texts in the bible that clearly say that these events took place, you do not believe that they did.

You have given lengthy reasoning why you believe this; a theory that involves the entire bible as similitude (which I do not personally buy into, and we agree to disagree on that point).

Nope. I'm wrong. I just realized that there's no way to get back on the thread's original theme again, because nothing that happened in the bible actually happened, per you. There's no place to continue with you from there. There's no common reference left.

So then, at this point in the discussion, which I realize is really only to read one last, loooooong, drawn out convoluted explanation that will make no sense to anyone other than you and Ken, I am wondering why you believe any of the Xian, Jewish, Hebrew, Jesus, god, bible, cross, resurrection, faith, hope, prophesies, miracles, etc., etc., etc., whichever parts of it you actually do believe, when you've essentially yanked out from under it any support it might have had from a historical context as the actual history of the Hebrew Jews, written by them, as it was happening, which includes the very basis and beginnings of the idea of the god you appear to believe actually exists?!

Everything they wrote is a lie, but you buy the overall story. Huh??? How does that work?

I'm not looking for a list of the individual things you believe in this story.

I'm not looking for any more reasons you believe this similitude stuff.

I'm not looking for any more lengthy, circular rides through the meandering similitudes that link words together like a some big meaningful puzzle of the universe that (trust me) make sense only to you and Ken and others on the same drugs.

I'm not interested in any of that stuff which frankly, I believe could be done with any text large enough, like War and Peace or probably even Huck Finn. Here: Try it with a search engine. Just type in a word, any word. Now take the first 50 pages that come up in the search, print them all out, and spend the next month or year looking for deep, intricate patterns of hidden meanings between them. They will fit together eventually. Your mind will find a way to make that happen, because that's what you want to happen. They will enlighten you. Your mind will, once again, find a way to make that happen for you, because that's what you want to happen. They will have deep meaning that is unbelievably spooky to you. God will speak to you through an internet search engine if you do this, if you truly want him to. (you have to really want it - no pretending).

No, none of that is what I'm looking for here.

What I'm interested in is an explanation of how you can throw out the very foundations of the myth entirely, and still hold on to the myth which now has no support at all??!

I really hope that doesn't sound condescending, but I have to tell you... Just as the others saw Ken as a total loon in the other thread (as did I), you are appearing here and now. For the exact same reasons. I mean no offense. Seriously. I just don't know how else to put it delicatly, and I have some strange magnetic desire to hear this explanation from you.

See if you can do it without asking Ken how it all fits together into the Ken cosmology of similitudinalnessivity, or whatever he's going to eventually call it when he's up for funding from Bush.

I've got a feeling I'll be sitting here shaking my head as I witness the frenetic pace at which you'll chase your own tail over it (as has been the case thus far), but I hold out some small hope that this one time, you'll get to the point, speak clearly, find some small nugget of rationability and enlighten me in some way with even a single point of light in an otherwise murky sea of total way-out, wackiness.

I've been thinking about you and Ken for days now, and while I want very much to give you the benefit of the doubt, I have to wonder if you're not just pulling our legs with all this stuff. I mean, this is REALLY out there. I mean, the Xians' story has weak legs, but yours has no legs at all. You've removed them entirely, by wiping the entire Hebrew history that introduced the myth in the first place.

You threw out "In the beginning" so where in the heck do you start your myth from?

You threw out Adam, so where do you originate sin?

Without a "fall", why is there a need to repent and why is there a cross at all?

Without the miracles, where's the idea that goddidit and therefore exists?

How do you infer some hidden truth of the bible in the absence of any literal truth of the same book?

It just makes less and less sense, the more I think about it.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Owww! My head hurts now!

I didn't mean to go off on some kind of rant, but maybe it was just my turn. You've been circle-jerking here for a week on this thing without imparting a straightforward, clear thought.

I'll admit, I've been holding back and trying very hard to remain terribly civil despite an instinctual urge to do otherwise. At least, till now, and I'm really still restraining myself like you can't believe here. But I don't think you're to blame, so I don't think it's right to just go off on you. Besides, no matter what, you're entitled to your opinion. I firmly believe that. Just stay away from my kid, k?

Give me credit for trying.

Paradisedreams2

He has spoken "by" prophets "multiplied visions" and "USED similitudes" I can't see in any fashion how that can be questioned. I'll print off the post and look at it and get back to you this evening. I don't see the problem, but you don't believe in it and thats ok you don't need to it changes nothing. I believe in the similitudes and walk as an athiest in every way with the one exception that I believe... Thats it. My conclusion about the bible brings me to a place where I can walk as any typical Athiest with one flaw I believe in God. I'm free to explore everything, to live by no moral code, to see people as people, to not pass judgement, etc. etc.

So you have found renewed strength in popular oppinion? Thats nothing new we can all become braver and bolder in the security that others oppinions confirm our own opinions. Christians do the same.

I'll get back to you later because I was at the "loon" thread responding there.

Paradisedreams2

Buckster,
VERY GOOD POINT (even I'm impressed with the question Ok lets let go of everything I said for a moment and deal with the "three pictures" (you can't lose) Prophets, similitudes, Visions. I took "Woman" "Preist" "curse", "oath" and etc. and did not toss these out but I looked elsewhere in scripture linking a divine plan to these very things. Lets look at "three" there are many more but lets just move in that direction slowly because If I start combining everything together it looks like a complete mess. Heres one...

Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (you have a picture of three things going on (there are many more)

Taking it in a similitude is not a problem all pictures link together and you'll still come into a blend with them. Use numbers in the pictures instead)

There are "three" that testify

These testimonys are considered by God himself to be "lies".He is a Liar and the father of them. Only at the cross do they manifest themselves to be true. You heard me right the prophets spoke lies because what was spoken never came to pass and in the similitude of the law God is showing He is the liar. God is also the Murderer from the begining because the true begining of the new creation was made manifest through Christ on the cross thus was born Emmanuel which means, "God with us" Vigin Birth" seen as similitude came to pass on the cross having His spirit poured out on ALL flesh both in you and in me and everyone from that moment on (the cross) God is with men, Him in you.

Now that theres "hints" on how God speaks in Hosea by using prophets, visions and similitudes lets conclude IT in itself IS a similitude not a problem. As in the verses of the woman drinking curses there is truth in the pictures but not in the literal interpretation just "Hints".

So your back to the "numbers" in the pictures and the numbers are hints as well...

Genesis 40:18 And Joseph answered and said, This [is] the interpretation thereof: The three baskets [are] three days

following verse "the cross"

Genesis 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy HEAD from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

Hmmmmm... someone hanging on a "tree"... "take and eat my flesh" what tree? You get the picture in Genesis in the garden (knowledge of good and evil) what kind of tree is that? Through the law comes the knowledge of good and evil. Who was hung from that tree (expressed in similitude) which took the "form" of the cross? Christ. Turning the stones to bread is fulfilling the scriptures making them life.

You can keep connecting it doesn't stop.

Duet. 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of ONE
witness He shall not be put to death.

We have to find these "witnesses" This is very kool, it establishes it in many forms you follow the links connecting the dots. It forms the picture. The Church cannot form the picture because she sees things as being "outside" of God, for example the Serpent.


This speaks of Christ the two or three witnesses are but hints and point to the law and the prophets. Christ is the "head" THEY (in Rev.) are beheaded (HE is CUT OFF) as seen in the picture of Daniel and for the purpose of it you can go and read, (to END the daily sacrifices) The paterns were only a SHADOW of the good things already here. So Christ is the substance. Either way you spin it, its Christ.

Look at the "temple" which manifested itself in SOLID FORM in the times of building the "patern" Even Paul saw they worship in a "copy" therefore the immitation which DID manifest itself is spoken of as "a copy"

You can reject the "literal similitude" by itself and thus look at the pictures alone linking them continually. "Like a dream or vision given to Pharoah it was given in TWO forms."

Because these pictures are blending at an incredible rate I'm not sure honestly how to understand the Original Sin... I don't have this answer right now so saying I do will do more harm then good to conclude anything yet.

The Begining I start at is the Cross

I didn't throw out Adam (I assimilated Him into the Christ Borg)

Christ became Sin

You ask, "without a Fall why is there a need to "Repent"... Did I express a NEED TO??? "Repentance is Hid from His eyes" (no repenting)

The "literal truth" the scriptures speak of Is "Christ" (the whole divine plan) Hidden in a similitude. Making foolish (omewhat)of mens approaches to the thing.

What about the "miracles"?
They were similitudes they spoke of a divine plan. I don't believe they were literally done in the old testament.
I'd be very surprised if they were done but the Temple took its form yet is regarded as a copy and not true so if Noahs Ark was indeed found which I don't think it ever will be it still represents the copy and means nothing in itself.

I suppose we can go on and on so if you feel your losing your temper there is no need to go on here I'm not out to argue or to bring it to a boil.

I'm satisfied with I'm "gullible" and your "wise"
No hard feelings. I respect your honesty and fantastic questions. But I don't have all the answers. I'm moving along the lines as seeing everything at the cross even sin but I haven't looked into it enough. At least respect my "I don't know" because I'm not convinced myself since scripture is seemingly melting together here. I'll let you know if I do

Great as always talking with you

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

Buckster

I question it thus:

The difference is: "AND (as in "also") USED similitudes" (the text)

vs.

"ONLY USES similitudes" (your interpretation of the text).

There's a huge difference.

As I said, we can just agree to disagree on it at this point. Having examined your line of thinking, I can see we'll be unable to define a common point of reference to move forward from. No big deal. I'm satisfied that we tried and that we had some interesting dialogue in the process.

Just a little point for you to consider: "Atheist" means, quite literally, "without god". Like this:

(A=without)+(Theist=god)=Atheist (without god)

That's it and that's all. There are no defined thought patterns, rituals, ideas, clothing styles, musical preferences, ages, colors, nationalities, sexual preferences, or ANY other defining factors. There is only "without god".

It is the only thing that defines an atheist. It is the only thing that we atheists have in common with one another for sure. As long as you have any belief in any god(s) you are in no way, shape or form an "atheist", nor do you "walk as any typical Atheist with one flaw." That "one flaw" is what defines you as something other than an atheist in every respect. You should pick another word.

I commend you. You're clearly on the right track, though I'm sure you have some sort of personal moral code you live by, as do we all. I admire your humanist traits and qualities.

Oh, I wouldn't say that it gave me any kind of renewed strength. I only passed along an observation. You were starting to reach a fevered pitch that was beginning to make me think that you might somehow be misunderstanding my passivity towards your exhortations as something other than what it really was. I thought I'd just clear it up for you before you wasted too much time and effort with it.

Just because I treat you in a civil and polite manner doesn't mean I don't think you're a loon sometimes when it comes to your ideas regarding supernatural creatures or the actual known history of the writings within the bible and the nature of the Hebrew goat herders that wrote it. I just don't like to offend people needlessly, that's all.

It really matters not whether you believe they were a murderous bunch of assholes in the real, live history of the world at that time - they were anyway. And your "similitudes" are never, ever going to take that claim to fame from them. They've rightfully earned it. You can play word games with the texts till Jesus comes back and sings "Mammy", but it's not going to change the actual history of the Hebrew Jews as recorded by the Hebrew Jews themselves.

All the information available through various histories and archeology shows that, indeed, they were what the bible portrays of them during that period of history. It's pretty much a done deal already, established long before you formed your "opinions" of what they might have done or were capable of. When they bragged that they ripped open pregnant women for god, they meant exactly that, and they were the kind of barbaric tribe that was known to be capable of doing so without remorse. There's little question or debate among scholars regarding those parts of the bible that are related to historical events like wars. It's only the supernatural and fantastic stuff that is in question, simply because there's no evidence of it to be found anywhere and it totally defies logic and science, two things you also claim to embrace. (That, of course, is another head-scratcher for the rest of us on the board, regarding you.)

History itself doesn't change just because someone comes along and reads some cosmic meaning into the words within the history book that describes the history. The KJV that you and Ken are doing this with wasn't even translated directly from the original Hebrew to begin with, so how could it possibly have this direct word relationship you ascribe to it? What you're reading is not what the original writers wrote.

On top of that, the books of the NT are but a small sample of those that were available and considered for entry at the time the KJV was put together. Just out of curiosity, do you know anything about how the KJV itself came into existence? There's quite an interesting history to that as well, and it also helps utterly destroy the case Ken makes for his semantic similitude games. You should seriously study that a bit, if you're really are interested in finding the truth, rather than a perception of it that you like.

It's not the opinions of others that render me brave or bold, but the personal level of confidence attained by having acquired the collective facts and knowledge thus far in my personal searches and studies on the subjects in question. As my personal knowledge base continues to grow, so too does my confidence. I will tell you also that although I feel I'm quite knowledgeable regarding these topics and areas of study, I'm a serious lightweight compared to many around here.

The journey is never complete, but it does generally keep moving forward along a path of discovery and enlightenment through that continuation of pursuit and acquired knowledge. It has now been many years since my personal path took me from a tiny gold cross around my neck to well beyond the superstitious beliefs you are still exploring at this time. I suspect that if you continue to explore and seek knowledge with an open mind, as you say you are interested in doing, you will find yourself in my position or beyond eventually.

Yes, I know. I've been watching that thread with much interest. Quite a bit more interest than this one actually. It deals with the same core issues, but is much more direct in it's approach, which I thoroughly enjoy.

I'm particularly fond of watching the exchanges with Koy. Believe it or not, you would do well to search for as much meaning within his words as you do in Ken's or the bible's. You'll actually come away with something quite valuable if you do. And it will be 100% real. No mystery, no bullshit, no abstracts. Though he absolutely drips barrels of sarcasm that his victims often find offensive, his arguments are nonetheless constructed of pure logic and reason, which are justifiable unto themselves, and Koy is quite masterful with them.

Take your time... I'll be around.

Paradisedreams2

Ok... You are now back to questioning the "And".

I baked bread "AND" used a pan? I still don't understand your question.

I multiplied visions and USED similitudes? I take this as a means by which to interpret it. Also dropping the (as you wished) the direct reference to using these methods and coming back to making it a "similitude" in itself, can be done. Your back in the "numbers" thing Kens got a hold on these better then I do I'm looking into them. Me and Ken ran into each other on the net somewhere both leaving Christianity behind in the sense that it made no sense. I started studying by myself and was drawn to reading the scriptures like this. Thinking I was odd because I wasn't falling in line with the "majority" of Christian theology I drop my way of study even though I was really seeing something unique.

Years later I bumped into Ken somehow and there before my eyes was the same framework I felt led to build, my left imcomplete but I felt I met someone who was seeing the same things as myself.

You are asuming because I said, "God is in you" that you need somehow to have defined thought patterns (no thats not what I mean) You think I think you need ritual? No thats not what I think, neither anything you have listed including sexual preferences does not exist where I'm coming from.

"My belief" according to my understanding is that God is with all men whether they know it, profess it, believe in it, reject it, curse at it, or whatever you want to do with it.

How do I not walk as an athiest in my belief (careful what you attach to my belief). I walk by my own convictions as you do. I choose what I want to learn when I want to learn it. I put no holds bar on just about anything. Besides the SIMPLE "belief" in God.

I wish someone even you can give it your best shot at projecting exactly what I believe? This is what I find so fustrating.


I come through the door of the bible and ARRIVE at the same place an Athiest does. Only the Athiest doesn't believe in that "invisble something" and I do. Yet the testimonies I have read on Athiesm have the very things in dispute as I do in relation to general christianity.

You don't walk in fear of a punishing or rewarding god (I don't either)
Your free to explore with your mind (me too)
Your not a church going person (neither am I)
Athiests don't believe in an "audible God" (neither do I)
Athiests believe in Science (so do I)
Athiests believe in Evolution (so do I)
Athiests believe in free thought not tribal mentality (so do I)
*** Though I have reached many and more of your conclusions through my own belief I define my belief as my own understanding... I'm then called nuts because I do not condemn the book on the basis of literal interpretation BECAUSE it speaks in a similitude. Yet it brings me to the SAME PLACE of freedom of thought that you yourselves are in. I keep hearing endless puns on what my belief consists of left and right through various posts and its just not so. Best thing to do instead of stereotype me (which you have been much better then most) is set up a questionare. THEN you will know exactly where I'm coming from on the basis I describe my belief.

If in my belief I believe all humanity was born to think for themselves how do I error in my conclusion? Just because I read and enjoy a book you think repulsive even a book which brought them to the point where they had to put it down and drop the faith we landed in the same place.

Just because the "experts", "Theologians", preachers and pastors came to a conclusion through an already present systematic approach they were taught to follow in order to find the "so called Truth" my path led me reading it differently and seeing it differently as well as becoming a free person without conditioning, creed or code, or a God some find so terrible that I cannot see though I did when I read the scriptures in the same manner as them.


So I just don't get it at all. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Paradisedreams2

Buckster,
Its ok don't reply I can't be here any more. I'm an "all or nothing" type person and my hubby is having a problem with me being on the computer as often as I am. I agree with him I can't do this. I can't just sit here for a half hour it has to bee HOURS with me and I know its wrong. After a couple of weeks here I got to start paying a little attention to the most important people in my life right now. Thanks for the great conversation and hard questions, I'm sorry I'm not converted lol! (just kidding). I'll be back at a much later time in a month or two maybe three who knows. Just didn't want to leave you hanging without first telling you.

Thanks again Kim

Buckster

No, I am not "back" to questioning it, I am "still" asserting it. It has a list of statements separated by commas and "and"'s. It's a fucking list, as far as I can tell, and as far as I'm concerned. The fucking end. OK? Is that OK with you? I said, how many fucking times, that we could just leave it at that and agree to disagree. I said that because it became obvious to me that you're a moron that cannot think. Would you like to try for Double-Jeopardy?!! God DAMN!

Yeah, no shit you don't understand. Here ya go Suzy Homemaker: "I baked bread, and made cookies, and a cake." There. Does that explain it better?

(gasp!) You don't say!! Gosh, tell me again because I think I missed it the first couple of dozen times you said it without any support, other than that's the way it makes sense to your muddled brain. Don't take offense. That was merely a SIMILITUDE!!!

No, it can't. Not without suspending all brain activity. Oh wait, I see your dilemma...

No, I'm definitely NOT in the "numbers thing". I never, ever WAS in the "numbers thing". The only ones that have been in the "numbers thing" are you and Ken, WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT. That's because Ken is a fucking loon and so are you.

I told you before, I don't care to hear any more of your numbers and similitude bullshit, because that's ALL it is, despite your weak brain's acceptance of relating non-related things to reveal some cosmic plan. Get a goddamn grip on you mind for a fucking minute, PLEASE?????

And developed an entire NEW religion that makes even LESS sense! Unbe-fucking-lievable!!

For NO reason and WITHOUT support for it. It tickles your little underdeveloped neurons, so you like it. Great. Really. You're in a dream, dopey! Wake up!!!!

You ARE odd!! You ARE!! You were RIGHT!! Embrace it!! You're really seeing something unique that is made up of mythical figures and creatures, coincidences, speculation, far-fetched innuendo and your own DESIRE to see something unique. Pick up a subscription to psychology today or something. Read it. Wake UP!!

So two morons compare notes and decide that because they are very similar it MUST be the truth! I repeat: MORONS!!

Did I say that? No. Did I mean it? No. Oh... I know... you saw another SIMILITUDE in one of my posts, divided it by 3, multiplied by 7, anagrammed the letters, compared it to a tree, saw that the tree was made of "wood", and decided that "would" be what I meant!! Of course! The secrets of the universe - revealed at last!!! Awesome!!

Lady, NOTHING exists where you're coming from. NOTHING. This whole thing is about... Are you ready? Are you sure? Here it comes...

DID THE HEBREW JEWS RIP OPEN PREGNANT WOMEN, KILLING THE UNBORN CHILDREN, AND SAY GOD SAID TO?

That's it. The bible says so. History indicates they did shit like that as well. But no... YOU have a SIMILITUDE that somehow PROVES that it NEVER happened. You and Ken are a congregation of 2 that agree with each other, which of course PROVES that you're INTERPRETATION is correct, and ALL the historians and bible scholars are dead fucking WRONG. Hell, by your reasoning, the Hebrews probably never even existed at all! And neither do the Jews of today. Heck, neither do I. Nor you! We're all figments of KEN's imagination!! We're all SIMILITUDES!! (GASP!!)

Why didn't I see it before?!! Why, it's as plain as the CRAP you've been SPEWING about all these numbers and similitudes since the first post I ever saw from you.

Look in the mirror princess, and repeat this mantra: "MORON, MORON, MORON..." Do it till you see the light.

And "MY belief" is that you're a moron who doesn't have a clue what she's talking about, there's no such thing as god(s), and your home-grown religion cannot stand on it's own two feet because it doesn't HAVE any foundations, nor can it survive a simple test of logic without imploding in upon itself, vanishing in a puff of logic.

Remember that post? It still stands. Waving your hands magically in the air and saying "3 times 7 divided by a tree under a roman's nose, similitude, similitude, similitude... You see? It's the greatest mystery ever! And I'm so lucky to know it!" as you squeal with delight, doesn't make it go away either.

Which part was unclear? You believe in a GOD. An atheist is, by definition WITHOUT GOD(s). There is NO OTHER THING you can have in common with an atheist to be called an atheist. Go back to the mirror and repeat your special mantra.

Is that what you think an atheist is? Which part of the explanation escaped you? Oh, all of it.

Is that what you think an atheist is? Which part of the explanation escaped you? Oh, all of it.

Yes, especially things like reason and intellect. You've barred them completely, haven't you? Good girl. Now go say your special mantra.

And is that what you think an atheist is? Which part of the explanation escaped you? Oh, all of it.

THAT"S the part that makes you absolutly without a doubt NOT an atheist. Not even LIKE an atheist. Not even close.

See, that's describes you in a nutshell (pun intended). The description of an atheist spoon-fed to you is the easiest concept you've run across on this board yet, but you absolutely CANNOT manage it. You're incapable of processing a thought that is THAT simple. It speaks volumes about your ability to hold onto your end of a conversation.

You are NOT up to this. I'm sorry. Go play with Ken. I feel like I'm trying to have a conversation with a 4 year old when I talk to you, with your mind flitting from one mythical creature to the next in rapid-fire, unable to grasp the most simple and basic concepts or process data in ANY kind of logical manner at all. Unable to answer simple yes or no questions with a goddamn "yes" or fucking "no".

Is that a statement or a question princess? Take the god-pacifier out and speak slowly and clearly. Cause it made absolutely no sense at all. You are unable to even put a few simple words together to convey a simple thought or ask a question. Amazing, since you obviously have never had anything BUT a simple-minded thought in your entire life.

You have no idea what frustration is, sister. Read this post over and over and over until your eyes bleed, and you may begin to understand my frustration with you.


MORON! Listen closely to me now.

The bible is a book. It does not have a door. An atheist has arrived at the conclusion that THERE IS NO GOD. Have you reached that same conclusion? Do you believer THERE IS NO GOD? That's a YES or NO question, princess. It will not require a long, convoluted, meandering trip though a shit-pile of USELESS similitudes. Do you understand? Blink once for "yes".

Thus you are a moron, if you think that a small difference like that particular one allows you to call yourself an atheist. Think carefully now. Are you a moron? Blink once for "yes".

First, learn to spell it.

Second: Two words. WITHOUT GOD!!!!!! How can you be so absolutely STUPID??? Do you WORK at it or something? Do you wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say, "Today I'm going to work HARD at becoming LESS intelligent!" Then squeal with delight and clap your hands like a 5 year old? What the fuck is wrong with you?! WAKE UP!!!

Do you do it because THERE IS NO GOD?

ARE you free because THERE IS NO GOD?

Do you find it a worthless waste of time Because THERE IS NO GOD?

DO you believe this because THERE IS NO GOD?

Do you believe science and logic show THERE IS NO GOD?

Do you believe a natural cause is the ONLY explanation because THERE IS NO GOD?

Did you come to this conclusion after you realized THERE IS NO GOD?

Thanks for the update. If your "understanding" or "beliefs" include a god as a real thing, you are in no way, shape or for an atheist. Not even close. Not even, like, kinda. Got it princess? Think you can handle that?

I think you're making more out of it that there is. You're simply called nuts because you're a moron that thinks she's stumbled onto some great mysterious secret. You have simply deluded yourself. It's obvious to others. Most people regard the deluded as "nuts". Ok? Don't be too hard on yourself about it. There is still hope for you. You obviously CAN read. Start slow, read stuff with small words. When you get to a big word like "atheist" that you don't quite understand, go to dictionary.com and look it up. That's a good place to start. See you right back here in say... oh... 30 years or so.

The definition of atheist is not "someone with freedom of thought." Do you un der stand? Blink once for "yes".

The definition of atheist is "without god". Do you un der stand? Blink once for "yes".

I'm sorry. We see your beliefs as ridiculously naive and childish in nature. We see your explanations as lacking thought and childish in nature. We see you as a moron. Now go to the mirror and say your special mantra.

The party's over, princess. I've had all I can take of your ramblings. I tried. I honestly did try to give you a fair shake and let you work out a way to give me some simple and direct answers to some VERY simple and direct questions. You simply couldn't handle it. Now I'm telling you that you're a moron and I think you should just fuck off. Clear?

No, I will never know where you are coming from. Instead of playing on here, use your computer's word processor to write a dissertation on the merits and truths of your own 1-person religion. Put it online. Then come back here and put up a link. When I need a good laugh followed by a splitting headache, I'll go read parts of it.

1. Does it involve a GOD anywhere? If it does, that's error #1.
2. Christians are not born to think for themselves, therefore your beliefs are invalid. Now go say your special mantra.

I don't find it repulsive at all. I've been reading it all my life and still do. Especially during those years from K-9th when I went to parochial school. We got to read it there every single day. Then I got to read it on Wednesday night at youth group. Then I got to read it on the weekends too, at church, sunday school and Xian teen meets. And that's not even to mention all the "special" occasions we got to read it. And I'm not talking about just reading it, I'm talking about studying it. 43 years now, princess. Read it several times cover to cover. Even now, I spend at least 2 hours EVERY week cross-referencing texts, not only in the bible, but in historical references related to it. 43 years I've been at it. And you?

So go piss up a rope, thinking you know anything about me or what I read or think. You're a lightweight moron that doesn't even have a clue. You haven't even scratched the surface yet and you think you have some great meaning you can ascribe to it. You don't even know where it came from, who wrote it or when, but you're going to tell us you've found some great secret mystery in it. You're DELUDED. You know nothing. You have nothing. Especially not a CLUE.

At least they've done their homework. You haven't. You read the words and have no idea where they came from, their history, how they got INTO that book in the first place. You think it's all magical or something? Get a grip. The bible is an abortion of mismatched pamphlets that were put together by a vote on what was popular during the middle ages, so that a King could rule over all the differing factions of Xianity in his kingdom at the time. It's a political tool. Get it? Wanna guess which King was involved, princess? Read some history. Learn to think. Learn to LEARN.


You finally got something right.

Buckster

Shit. I miss her already.