Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tronvillain · 03-25-2002, 11:35 PM

Was that supposed to be a joke or do you actually think Melaclypse would be a remarkably mediocre opponent? I'm leaning towards joke because of the spelling and the implication, but it's hard to be sure.

phaedrus · 03-26-2002, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malaclypse the Younger:
<strong>As a moral subjectivist and a meat-loving omnivore, I hereby challenge anyone who advocates the ethical necessity of vegetarianism to a formal debate.

The gauntlet is down. As the challenged, you may choose the proposition resolved.
</strong>

Can anyone advocate or justify the ethical necessity of non-vegetarianism?

The AntiChris · 03-26-2002, 12:38 AM

As the first cowering vegetarian shuffles into the arena, the baying crowd roars with delight and yells "C'mon fundie, give it ya best shot! We dare ya!".

I'm not a vegetarian, but I do have a problem resolving some of, what I percieve to be, the moral ambiguities of meat-eating. On the one hand, most people have an innate repugnance to gratuitous cruelty to animals, whilst on the other, most of us are happy to breed and slaughter animals for food. I cannot believe I'm alone in struggling with this issue. If I were, the world would be made up solely of totally content meat eaters on the one hand and militant veggie fundies on the other - unlikely I think.

I have no wish to proselytize or condemn, so I am a little confused at the apparent ridicule this subject engenders.

Malaclypse the Younger

Quote:

They are complaining of censorship.

I'm not sure who "they" are (I haven't seen any complaints of censorship from vegetarians, but I'm new here). Whilst the posts thus far on this thread are, on the face of it, good-humoured, I do detect a smidgen of derision - maybe I'm just being ultra-sensitive

Whilst this cannot be construed as "censorship", such an environment is hardly conducive to open debate.

The reactions of many people who ridicule the "veggie" topic and characterise anyone who might defend vegetarianism as automatically "militant" or "fundie" (not necessarily in this thread) bear a remarkable similarity to the defensive reactions of many people when their basic beliefs are challenged.

Malaclypse the Younger - Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the challenge - but no thanks. I can't help feeling that this thread has been set up to fail.

Chris

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-26-2002, 05:15 AM

AntiChris

Obviously the management cannot affect the opinions of the membership here; they are free agents. I have been uniformly polite in my challenge, and any opponent would be debating me and no other. And the FD&D format allows a proponent "equal time"; your views would not be drowned out in an avalanche of responses.

I can only speculate as to the cause of the derisive tone of some of the posts on this thread. However the best way to rebut that tone is to conduct a reasonable, high-quality one-on-one debate. Whining about unfairness, when you are being given every chance at a fair debate, seems unproductive and gives the appearance you cannot rationally defend your views.

In any case, my job requires travel, and I will be away until Wed 27 Mar 8:00 PM MST; I might have an opportunity to post before then, but I can't guarantee it.

The AntiChris · 03-26-2002, 08:23 AM

Malaclypse the Younger

After seeing your reference to "the FD&D format", I now read your original challenge in a different light.

I'm relatively new here (I discovered II just over 4 days ago) and the full significance of the Formal Debates Forum hadn't dawned on me. For this reason I'd naturally assumed that the challenge was to be debated in this thread. I hope this explains my "whining".

Whilst I'd be happy to debate formally any subject about which I was reasonably well informed and for which I held firm views, the ethics of vegetarianism fulfil neither of these criteria.

As a meat-eater myself, I'm interested to find out how other meat-eaters reconcile their abhorrence of animal cruelty with the suspension of their compassion for no other apparent reasons than the pleasure it gives them and the fact that they have the power to do so. Unfortunately, I doubt that FD&D is the appropriate forum for the exchange of views I'm seeking.

I hope that a committed vegetarian takes up your challenge and the issues that concern me are debated.

Chris

MadMordigan · 03-26-2002, 08:43 AM

Was that supposed to be a joke ....it's hard to be sure.

Thats the whole point.

Not Prince Hamlet · 03-26-2002, 09:38 AM

There was a particularly abusive poster on the last two vegetarian threads who claimed his arguments were unassailable.

Obviously, this formal debate would be the perfect time for him to prove he is correct. This is his big chance to demonstrate the validity of his arguments without resorting to insults and name-calling.

At this point, he should put up or shut up.

Definitely do give the challenge a little more time before giving up. I don't want this guy coming back with some lame excuse about how he was away for the weekend, or he had some tough deadline at work and therefore missed the challenge.

Jeff

Bluebird · 03-26-2002, 10:26 AM

Before this thread heads the way of the two previous threads, I would just like to say that I have been a vegetarian for 2.5 year. Until November, I lifted weights 3 times a week for over a year (school got in the way after November) and I am in far better health, and far stronger, now than I was before I became a vegetarian. I had wanted to be a vegetarian for years (it started when I worked at a zoo in junior high school). But I was under the impression that vegetarians ate nothing but pasta. It took meeting my current boyfriend, who was the first committed vegetarian I had known, for me to realize that there are lots of GREAT dishes vegetarians can eat. So, if anyone out there wants to know more above being a vegetarian, I would love to talk about my experience in a private message...this thread is definitely not the place!

Also, I do not advocates the ethical NECESSITY of vegetarianism so I ain't debating that!

Detached9 · 03-26-2002, 11:18 AM

I'm vegetarian, but I don't consider it an ethical necessity to be a vegetarian. I think a spin-off of what tronvillain said would be my best reason to be a vegetarian: I have more empathy for animals than I do the pleasure of eating them.

"Lower-level" animals and humans do share many traits, but it would be a fallacy of division to claim they are one-of-the-same.

If you have more empathy for animals than the pleasure of eating them, I would be curious why you eat them?

No, I don't accept this challenge, for I don't think vegetarianism is an ethical necessity.

Brian63 · 03-26-2002, 12:17 PM

I am a vegetarian for ethical and environmental reasons, but I will readily admit that other people have far more thought-out positions than I do, both for and against.

In my opinion, the morality of vegetarianism is an extremely interesting (and important!) topic, but I am definitely not familiar enough with topics of morality to participiate in a sophisticated debate. In the next couple/few years I plan on doing a lot more reading about morality in general, and about vegetarianism, abortion, assisted suicide, and other such related issues in particular.

So if we fast-forward a few years in time, I'd take ya on Mal.

Brian

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-25-2002, 11:35 PM	#31
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Was that supposed to be a joke or do you actually think Melaclypse would be a remarkably mediocre opponent? I'm leaning towards joke because of the spelling and the implication, but it's hard to be sure.

03-26-2002, 05:15 AM	#34
Malaclypse the Younger Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: nowhere Posts: 416	AntiChris Obviously the management cannot affect the opinions of the membership here; they are free agents. I have been uniformly polite in my challenge, and any opponent would be debating me and no other. And the FD&D format allows a proponent "equal time"; your views would not be drowned out in an avalanche of responses. I can only speculate as to the cause of the derisive tone of some of the posts on this thread. However the best way to rebut that tone is to conduct a reasonable, high-quality one-on-one debate. Whining about unfairness, when you are being given every chance at a fair debate, seems unproductive and gives the appearance you cannot rationally defend your views. In any case, my job requires travel, and I will be away until Wed 27 Mar 8:00 PM MST; I might have an opportunity to post before then, but I can't guarantee it.

03-26-2002, 08:23 AM	#35
The AntiChris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 5,932	Malaclypse the Younger After seeing your reference to "the FD&D format", I now read your original challenge in a different light. I'm relatively new here (I discovered II just over 4 days ago) and the full significance of the Formal Debates Forum hadn't dawned on me. For this reason I'd naturally assumed that the challenge was to be debated in this thread. I hope this explains my "whining". Whilst I'd be happy to debate formally any subject about which I was reasonably well informed and for which I held firm views, the ethics of vegetarianism fulfil neither of these criteria. As a meat-eater myself, I'm interested to find out how other meat-eaters reconcile their abhorrence of animal cruelty with the suspension of their compassion for no other apparent reasons than the pleasure it gives them and the fact that they have the power to do so. Unfortunately, I doubt that FD&D is the appropriate forum for the exchange of views I'm seeking. I hope that a committed vegetarian takes up your challenge and the issues that concern me are debated. Chris

03-26-2002, 08:43 AM	#36
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	Was that supposed to be a joke ....it's hard to be sure. Thats the whole point.

03-26-2002, 09:38 AM	#37
Not Prince Hamlet Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,309	There was a particularly abusive poster on the last two vegetarian threads who claimed his arguments were unassailable. Obviously, this formal debate would be the perfect time for him to prove he is correct. This is his big chance to demonstrate the validity of his arguments without resorting to insults and name-calling. At this point, he should put up or shut up. Definitely do give the challenge a little more time before giving up. I don't want this guy coming back with some lame excuse about how he was away for the weekend, or he had some tough deadline at work and therefore missed the challenge. Jeff

03-26-2002, 10:26 AM	#38
Bluebird Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 18	Before this thread heads the way of the two previous threads, I would just like to say that I have been a vegetarian for 2.5 year. Until November, I lifted weights 3 times a week for over a year (school got in the way after November) and I am in far better health, and far stronger, now than I was before I became a vegetarian. I had wanted to be a vegetarian for years (it started when I worked at a zoo in junior high school). But I was under the impression that vegetarians ate nothing but pasta. It took meeting my current boyfriend, who was the first committed vegetarian I had known, for me to realize that there are lots of GREAT dishes vegetarians can eat. So, if anyone out there wants to know more above being a vegetarian, I would love to talk about my experience in a private message...this thread is definitely not the place! Also, I do not advocates the ethical NECESSITY of vegetarianism so I ain't debating that!

03-26-2002, 11:18 AM	#39
Detached9 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 341	I'm vegetarian, but I don't consider it an ethical necessity to be a vegetarian. I think a spin-off of what tronvillain said would be my best reason to be a vegetarian: I have more empathy for animals than I do the pleasure of eating them. "Lower-level" animals and humans do share many traits, but it would be a fallacy of division to claim they are one-of-the-same. If you have more empathy for animals than the pleasure of eating them, I would be curious why you eat them? No, I don't accept this challenge, for I don't think vegetarianism is an ethical necessity.

03-26-2002, 12:17 PM	#40
Brian63 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: My own little fantasy world Posts: 8,911	I am a vegetarian for ethical and environmental reasons, but I will readily admit that other people have far more thought-out positions than I do, both for and against. In my opinion, the morality of vegetarianism is an extremely interesting (and important!) topic, but I am definitely not familiar enough with topics of morality to participiate in a sophisticated debate. In the next couple/few years I plan on doing a lot more reading about morality in general, and about vegetarianism, abortion, assisted suicide, and other such related issues in particular. So if we fast-forward a few years in time, I'd take ya on Mal. Brian

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.