Totalitarianist

Such is my belief as well.

quartodeciman

I lack the belief that any gods do exist, but I also lack the belief that gods do not exist.

Before you master editors of the latest Newspeak edition prevail over common speech practice, I can always say "I am agnostic about any god's existence". Now would I have to say "I am atheist about any god's existence"? That sounds pleonastic.

I'm militant agnostic! I don't know, and neither do you!

Quart

Paperstreet

Actually, according to definition, no one knows what is true and what is not true, when it comes to what gods exist and what dont. I mean, no one can say yeah I KNOW there is a GOD!!! If they do, they have their head up their ass. If someone says they KNOW there is no god they to, are lying. But I do agree you can be an athiest as well as an agnostic.

Totalitarianist

Well, logical fallacies, paradoxes and contradictions, absurdities,improbabilities, etc., etc., etc., become manifest when the "God" idea is asserted. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that He does not exist--no, it is of logical necessity the He does not exist.

Anyway, agnostics are always atheists by definition. If they have no knowledge of God, they have no knowledge of God. If they have any knowledge of Deity whatsoever, they are not agnostics. Even if the only knowledge is "existence", for that, too, is knowledge, however little, and agnostics cannot by definition have such knowledge. Now, since atheism is a lack of belief in God, all agnostics are by definition Atheists.

RichardMorey

The two words, "atheist" and "agnostic", are NOT mutually exclusive. I am (and I think most people here are) both at the same time.

My epistemology is agnostic. There may or may not be an entity corresponding very loosely to some kind of thing that some theist believes. I also believe that most definitions of "god" involve inherent logical contradictions, but maybe there is some definition which doesn't that is true.

However, with regards to belief I am atheist. I do not believe in a god. I find no reason to believe in a god; there simply is no evidence that would support that belief.

The key is that the question that defines atheists is different from the question that defines agnostics.

1. Does a god of some description exist?
a. Yes (theist or deist or something else religious)
b. No (STRONG atheist)
c. I don't know (agnostic)

2. Do you believe that a god exists?
a. Yes (theist or deist or something else religious)
b. No (atheist)

Note that you can answer c to 1 and b to 2, thus making you an agnostic atheist. Note also that atheism deals with your positive beliefs, and agnosticism deals possible states the universe could be in. When someone asks you, "Do you believe in a god?" you CAN'T say "I don't know," because you are generally fully aware of your own beliefs. But if someone asked you question 1, you could say "I don't know," because you are NOT generally aware of the state the of truth of all propositions.

Wow, that was long winded. I hope that made sense.

RichardMorey

I think this is incorrect. Agnosticism means to not "know." If you believe in a god, but believe that that is fallible, you may claim to be an agnostic.

I am using the word "know" as a measure of certainty here, because it doesn't make sense to take it as it is generally used in epistemology, which is justified, true belief. If we used it that way, we would never know what another person is, because you're never sure if their beliefs are justified

Totalitarianist

"A", as in the words "atheism" and "amoral", means "without" or "lacking". "Gnostic" comes from the Greek word "gnosis", which means "knowledge". An agnostic, therefore, is someone without knowledge of God. If someone can say that God exists, and that that is the only knowledge which he haves of Him, it is knowledge nonetheless. The agnostic has no knowledge whatsoever of Deity, and cannot even apply the concept "existence" to it. Atheism is a lack of belief in Deity, i.e. a lack of belief in the existence of Deity. To believe in something one must have knowledge of it. The agnostic has no knowledge of Deity; therefore, all agnostics are atheists, most atheists are agnostics.

emphryio

I think the meaningful question is: Do you live as if you know you will cease to exist someday?

If yes, atheist.
If no, theist.

If you say you don't know, you are still living in a manner consistent with either the yes or no answer. You just don't understand yourself well enough to know which answer it is that you are living by.

Personally I think all the known religions are ridiculous and I understand logically that belief in God is silly, but I guess I'm still a theist, because I don't live as if I will cease to exist someday.

I hate to admit that.

I still have thinking to do on this.

Totalitarianist

Uh, your argument is refuted by my argument above. And there are, of course, atheists who believe in immortality.

Tenek

I believe that I am immortal.

No problems yet. :P

I suppose the a/b/c / a/b scheme also allows for an agnostic theist - one who doesn't know if there are any gods, but believe anyways. Maybe.

I'll get back to you on that. :\