Freethought & Rationalism Archive

davidstewart · 01-14-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Defiant Heretic
Standard argument from design. "Everything needs to have been created. Except for God. Just because he's special." Or in this case, just because we're living an eternal present. But if that's the case, then there is no past, and cause and effect cease to have meaning. At which point the premise becomes invalid. Nice try, though.

It's stupid to think that in God's universe, he needs to have a cause and effect to get anything done. It's hard to explain what it is like, because I have not been there, and even if I had it would be beyond words. Nothing is made because it is already perfect, there is therefore no need for a cause and affect.

Mageth · 01-14-2003, 04:42 PM

So, davidstewart, name one scientist, and list his/her credentials, who actually said the big bang was triggered by "particles of gas colliding to produce an explosion. "

Duck! · 01-14-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
Despite the comments I have received, I am stand firm in my beliefs. Perhaps you could counter my beliefs with some of your own, or even go as far to direct me to who you believe to be the correct scientists. We always regard the 'right' people, as the people who agree with us, so the chances are that whoever you regard to be correct will be in my opinion false. Such is the way of free thinking, but if you'd still rather go ahead and tell me who is correct I'd still prefer to see evidence to back this claim up.

Well, you could try your local bookstore for some popular science books on cosmology, e.g. Hawking. I'm not very well read but I enjoy popular science, and I've never heard it claimed by a scientist that "gas colliding" caused the big bang or anything like that.

Where did you come across that idea anyway? It's an odd one alright.

Duck!

Mageth · 01-14-2003, 04:47 PM

Nothing is made because it is already perfect, there is therefore no need for a cause and affect.

And yet you claim god, in that universe, created our universe, and thus is the "cause" for our universe, which is the "effect" of god's action. Why did he do so if his universe is already perfect, and how did he do so if there's no need for cause and effect in his universe, and if as you claim "nothing is made" in his universe? Can't you see the contradiction in your own statements?

davidstewart · 01-14-2003, 05:05 PM

***Huh? Common sense speaks of experiential evidence; who has experienced such a thing?***

Well let me put this simply to you. I have never seen an aeroplane collide with a space ship, but common sense tells me they would both explode. Now that is not based on 'experiential evidence,' in the same way I used the example of the two balloons to prove my belief that once you die you are left in the outer world. If you want to go and try and balloon experiment you are welcome to do so.

It would seem logical that a creator would make some way of knowing what is going on in the world that was created.

***Why would that seem logical?***

Well let's look at it. Who would make a world that would go totally haywire immediately; yes, there are tests in life but without the help of God nothing would be possible. I would not be at this computer, in fact civilisation would not exist. Put a herd of cows and bulls into 5,000 acres of ideal land and come back 5,000 years later, what do you have? A civilisation of cows in cars and on motorbikes, with briefcases? No just a field of cows and bulls. That's because God's plan is for humans to do these sort of things, not any other creature.

Life is so hard because God wants us to earn our way to his universe.

***Huh?***

I really want to know what you think yourself, about the existence of God, and I welcome any questions you have. However when it comes to 'Huh' I'm not sure what to expect from you next, perhaps you didn't understand, maybe you're expressing that it's a stupid line, or maybe you're only 9 years old, but 'Huh' doesn't tell me anything other than you've either got no beliefs of your own or that you don't think their worth showing.

Therefore God cannot interfere in the processes of life.

***The bible is full of stories of god interfering in the processes of life. And later you yourself say:***

It is evident that prayer works because no matter how hard a situation, if you pray before hand, the result will never ever be as bad as you expected.

***So aren't you claiming that god somehow, sometimes, interferes with the "processes of life"?***

God can help people to see the light, he can try and draw someone closer to being a better person. So for example if a young lady is walking past a gang at night and and she prays, God can help these people to see that it wouldn't be beneficial to harm her in any way. This is not changing the processes of life because the action has not occured yet, but the gang can either choose to follow God or not, but the outcome will never be as bad as it would have been before.

There must be two constants. Good and bad.

***Why "must" there be these two constants? And why are they "constants?"***

Something that is done is either good or bad, you see this every day, they are constants, you can't get away from them, one thing is either one or the other. They are with us all the time, they are constants.

There must therefore be a source for each; we have established that the source of good is God, and therefore the source of badness must be the opposite of God, which God calls Satan.

***Why must there be a source for each? I haven't seen you establish any such thing. And who, pray tell, is the source of Satan? If god created this universe, then he gets full credit for everything in the universe, doesn't he?***

In order for the trials and tribulations of life to be created, there must be an opposite of good. God created this but he isn't forcing us to use it, on the contrary, he is trying to draw us away from it, even though the dark side is tempting us. He made it because he wants us to resist it, if we only knew good then goodness would be worth nothing. God gets the full credit for creating a world where there is freedom of choice, if evil didn't exist then we would always be happy, and as I said, if we have happiness all the time, what have we done to deserve it?

Does God send us to hell? We send ourselves to hell.

***And, according to your "logic," god created the universe in which it is possible for us to go to hell. Therefore god is responsible for us going to hell.***

God doesn't want us to go to hell, but in order to have free choice there must be the choice of good or bad, and why should someone who is bad and refuses to ever believe in goodness, wind up at the source of goodness, if that happens then the tests of life mean nothing and good never triumphs over evil because evil ends up as good anyway.

God is probably laughing at our logic.

***If he existed, he'd no doubt be laughing at your post's (lack of, and misuse of the term) logic.***

I am trying to explain to the 'Stevie Wonders of Faith' what I believe in. How can God laugh at that? If I've made mistakes then he'll help me see them, but the essence of it is that I believe in God.

P.S. I have noticed quite a few one liners as replies from other forum users, I will not be replying to those as it is obvious they didn't bother connecting their brain to their fingers for a while so that they could type up a relatively decent answer. Thank you.

davidstewart · 01-14-2003, 05:08 PM

tommyc said: "I do not believe Mr. Stewart will be responding to any of our posts."

Well regarding both that belief and your religious beliefs, I believe your wrong.

Philosoft · 01-14-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
It's stupid to think that in God's universe, he needs to have a cause and effect to get anything done. It's hard to explain what it is like, because I have not been there, and even if I had it would be beyond words.

How do you know what things are "stupid" to believe about "God's universe" if its explanation is "beyond words"?

Quote:

Nothing is made because it is already perfect, there is therefore no need for a cause and affect.

Now wait. These look like words that purport to describe "God's universe." Yet you just told us there are no words to describe it. Which is it?

davidstewart · 01-14-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft

How do you know what things are "stupid" to believe about "God's universe" if its explanation is "beyond words"?

It's stupid to think that God's universe need be the same as ours, and because of this it is stupid to base the existence of God on what humans see as logic. I can't give you exact details about the Kingdom of God, this is what I mean by the fact that it is 'beyond words.'

Now wait. These look like words that purport to describe "God's universe." Yet you just told us there are no words to describe it. Which is it? [/B]

It's both, different points. There's no way to describe the mechisation of another universe if you haven't been there, or even what it is like to be there, but one can come to the conclusion, through common sense, that another universe needn't be the same as ours.

Philosoft · 01-14-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
It's both, different points. There's no way to describe the mechisation of another universe if you haven't been there, or even what it is like to be there, but one can come to the conclusion, through common sense, that another universe needn't be the same as ours.

So what? Your reasoning begs for skepticism, not "common sense" conclusions, whatever those are. Certainly the philosophical argument, if universe B exists, universe B is not necessarily identical to universe A, is logically valid. But how does it follow that the hypothesis, universe B = universe A, is "stupid"? According to your argument, the hypothesis, God's universe =! our universe, is "stupid" as well.

In any case, what do you mean by "different"? Fundamentally different? Fuctionally different? Developmentally different?

Duck! · 01-14-2003, 05:54 PM

I'm still curious as to where he came upon the idea that the big bang was caused by collapsing gas.

Duck!

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01-14-2003, 04:42 PM	#22
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So, davidstewart, name one scientist, and list his/her credentials, who actually said the big bang was triggered by "particles of gas colliding to produce an explosion. "

01-14-2003, 04:47 PM	#24
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Nothing is made because it is already perfect, there is therefore no need for a cause and affect. And yet you claim god, in that universe, created our universe, and thus is the "cause" for our universe, which is the "effect" of god's action. Why did he do so if his universe is already perfect, and how did he do so if there's no need for cause and effect in his universe, and if as you claim "nothing is made" in his universe? Can't you see the contradiction in your own statements?

01-14-2003, 05:05 PM	#25
davidstewart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 6	*Huh? Common sense speaks of experiential evidence; who has experienced such a thing?* Well let me put this simply to you. I have never seen an aeroplane collide with a space ship, but common sense tells me they would both explode. Now that is not based on 'experiential evidence,' in the same way I used the example of the two balloons to prove my belief that once you die you are left in the outer world. If you want to go and try and balloon experiment you are welcome to do so. It would seem logical that a creator would make some way of knowing what is going on in the world that was created. *Why would that seem logical?* Well let's look at it. Who would make a world that would go totally haywire immediately; yes, there are tests in life but without the help of God nothing would be possible. I would not be at this computer, in fact civilisation would not exist. Put a herd of cows and bulls into 5,000 acres of ideal land and come back 5,000 years later, what do you have? A civilisation of cows in cars and on motorbikes, with briefcases? No just a field of cows and bulls. That's because God's plan is for humans to do these sort of things, not any other creature. Life is so hard because God wants us to earn our way to his universe. *Huh?* I really want to know what you think yourself, about the existence of God, and I welcome any questions you have. However when it comes to 'Huh' I'm not sure what to expect from you next, perhaps you didn't understand, maybe you're expressing that it's a stupid line, or maybe you're only 9 years old, but 'Huh' doesn't tell me anything other than you've either got no beliefs of your own or that you don't think their worth showing. Therefore God cannot interfere in the processes of life. *The bible is full of stories of god interfering in the processes of life. And later you yourself say:* It is evident that prayer works because no matter how hard a situation, if you pray before hand, the result will never ever be as bad as you expected. *So aren't you claiming that god somehow, sometimes, interferes with the "processes of life"?* God can help people to see the light, he can try and draw someone closer to being a better person. So for example if a young lady is walking past a gang at night and and she prays, God can help these people to see that it wouldn't be beneficial to harm her in any way. This is not changing the processes of life because the action has not occured yet, but the gang can either choose to follow God or not, but the outcome will never be as bad as it would have been before. There must be two constants. Good and bad. *Why "must" there be these two constants? And why are they "constants?"* Something that is done is either good or bad, you see this every day, they are constants, you can't get away from them, one thing is either one or the other. They are with us all the time, they are constants. There must therefore be a source for each; we have established that the source of good is God, and therefore the source of badness must be the opposite of God, which God calls Satan. *Why must there be a source for each? I haven't seen you establish any such thing. And who, pray tell, is the source of Satan? If god created this universe, then he gets full credit for everything in the universe, doesn't he?* In order for the trials and tribulations of life to be created, there must be an opposite of good. God created this but he isn't forcing us to use it, on the contrary, he is trying to draw us away from it, even though the dark side is tempting us. He made it because he wants us to resist it, if we only knew good then goodness would be worth nothing. God gets the full credit for creating a world where there is freedom of choice, if evil didn't exist then we would always be happy, and as I said, if we have happiness all the time, what have we done to deserve it? Does God send us to hell? We send ourselves to hell. *And, according to your "logic," god created the universe in which it is possible for us to go to hell. Therefore god is responsible for us going to hell.* God doesn't want us to go to hell, but in order to have free choice there must be the choice of good or bad, and why should someone who is bad and refuses to ever believe in goodness, wind up at the source of goodness, if that happens then the tests of life mean nothing and good never triumphs over evil because evil ends up as good anyway. God is probably laughing at our logic. *If he existed, he'd no doubt be laughing at your post's (lack of, and misuse of the term) logic.* I am trying to explain to the 'Stevie Wonders of Faith' what I believe in. How can God laugh at that? If I've made mistakes then he'll help me see them, but the essence of it is that I believe in God. P.S. I have noticed quite a few one liners as replies from other forum users, I will not be replying to those as it is obvious they didn't bother connecting their brain to their fingers for a while so that they could type up a relatively decent answer. Thank you.

01-14-2003, 05:08 PM	#26
davidstewart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 6	tommyc said: "I do not believe Mr. Stewart will be responding to any of our posts." Well regarding both that belief and your religious beliefs, I believe your wrong.

01-14-2003, 05:54 PM	#30
Duck! Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 3,647	I'm still curious as to where he came upon the idea that the big bang was caused by collapsing gas. Duck!

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