Freethought & Rationalism Archive

davidstewart · 01-13-2003, 11:49 AM

Before I begin, the following must be agreed, based on common sense.

1. If nothing is able to create something, then this law would be a constant, for example if a rock was created from thin air in 1962, it would still be possible for rocks to be created from thin air by no other interference, at any time henceforth and previous, unless a higher power had intervened.

2. The term 'creation' is dependent on the term 'time.' This is the case because if there was no time there would be no before and after, simply what is now, therefore meaning that whatever exists in the present will always be because there is no before and after.

3. Nothing can be created by anything less than itself, and anything that is created by one thing can only be, at the most, to the same standard as the creator. For example, a horse can only create (through birth) another horse, it is impossible for it to create anything bigger or more intelligent.

4. The laws of what we know as our universe do not need to be, and are almost certainly not, the laws of any possible higher universe. This is so because in order for the laws that we as humans follow to be created, the creator must follow laws which are superior to ours, as point 3 states that nothing can create anything higher than itself. Thus meaning that in order for one thing to be created, it must be created by a being either equal or higher than itself.

Many scientists believe that the universe began at the Big Bang. I ask them what triggered the Big Bang, and they often say, particles of gas colliding to produce an explosion. I ask where these gas particles came from and logic would say from another source, then where did this source come from I ask. It goes on and on. One must therefore draw one of two conclusions

(1) There has always been a change reaction of events leading to the creation of our universe, and this chain of reactions continues back through time and does not end.

(2) The original source of the chain reaction must have been created by a higher power through the higher power's own choice.

The problem with point one is simple. On the face of it, one could imagine a chain of events that lead back through time and never end, and the creation of our universe is simply another one of them. However several flaws emerge: How was the original source of the chain reaction created? It cannot just always have been there because the term 'creation' depends on the term 'time', as explained in note 2 above. Therefore since the law of time could not have been created by nothing, we must assume that in this scenario time has always existed. Since time has always existed we are then faced with the problem of 'before' and 'after', what was there before the original source and what was there after. One can say that after the collision of the original source that several other chain reactions followed, but when the point of what happened previously is raised, there is no answer but the theory that this source was created by a power greater than itself, stated in note 3.

Since the original source was created by a power greater than itself, this power demands examination.

The power must be:

Able to make choices, as in the absence of a chain reaction nothing can exist. If there is nothing to begin a course of events, nothing can exist. Therefore the choice must have been made to create the original chain reaction source.

With this in mind let us some up what we have found. The higher power must have, through the higher power's own will, created the original source of the chain reaction that was the beginning of the creaction of the universe.

Now we have established that the higher power does exist. From now on I will refer to the higher power as God.

Now that God has set of the chain reaction, based on the world in which we live, it is clear that the beings of our universe have the following objectives:

(1) To persist in the face of the problems created by the chain reaction and to overcome them, with the help of God.

(2) To continue the human race.

God would not have created a world in which problems are created if he did not want us to face them, this is clear because he could easily have created a world that is perfect. However we must remember one thing, the world in which God lives must be perfect, there are no chain reactions to produce problems in God's universe, as he did not create any.

Who created God?

'Creation' needs 'time.' Without the term 'time' there is no before and after. Through logic it is evident that a creator of this universe must have created everything that exists, this means therefore that God created what we know as 'time', meaning we have a concept of 'before' and 'after', however this does not have to be the case in God's universe, which is the original universe before the creation of our own. This is the argument for everlasting life, the fact that 'time' does not exist in God's universe and therefore what is now will always be, the term 'always' is not even relevent as the only term for such a universe is 'the present.'

Now we know:

(1) Who created the universe.
(2) Who created the creator of the universe.

Now what happens to us after we die?

Common sense tells us that if one world exists inside another world, and the former world ends, whatever was in the former world is now in the latter world. For example if there are three pebbles in a balloon, and that balloon is inside a much larger balloon, and the smaller balloons bursts, then the pebbles are now in the larger balloon. Using this logic, we can see that if a being in the world created by God, ceases to be in that world, it must then be in the world of the creator, it cannot simply die because that would mean that God's world does not exist, but the above is evidence on the contrary.

Praying to God

It would seem logical that a creator would make some way of knowing what is going on in the world that was created. Car manufacturers do not make their cars with simply the engine and parts. They put information dials at the controls so that an observer can see exactly what the car is doing, for example the car's speed and power. In the same way, we can see that God has created a method by which he knows everything that is happening in the minds of his creation, but he has also created another important function, the ability for the creation to communicate with the creator. It is evident that prayer works because no matter how hard a situation, if you pray before hand, the result will never ever be as bad as you expected. One can only try this for oneself, but it is guarenteed to work. Whether it's walking past a gang at night or facing execution, the result will never be as bad as expected if one prays before hand. I can only speak from my own experiences, but I refuse to do so because I want others to try it for themselves.

The reason life is so hard

It is logical that those who live in a paradise without deserving it, are good for nothing. Even the angels in God's universe work. Even God works. It is therefore the case that God does not want anyone who doesn't deserve to live in perfection, to do so if he or she has not earned it. Would you give your child a sweet every hour if he or she did not help around the house or use manners? In the same way God's universe is open to all those who respect the fact that it is the original centre of goodness, and all those who have acted contrary to goodness without repentance cannot possibly live there forever, because they do not believe in the purpose of creation: To show that goodness will prevail over evil.

Life is so hard because God wants us to earn our way to his universe. There nothing that can happen to a person that God doesn't think they can handle. When an innocent child is run over by a car, there is no evidence that the child actually feels pain at the point of death, and if he or she does then it is simply a final test. If one can get through life without blaming or cursing the creator, or acting contrary to the creator's wishes, then one has proven that good can prevail over evil; and this being the point of creation, it is the gateway to the outer world.

God will not interfere in the problems that arise in this world because we have freedom. We have the freedom to eat as much as we like, to say what we like, and to do what we like. Whether it is killing a hedgehod or a person, it is the same principle because God will not interfere. What God will do, if it is appropriate, is make the final hours of the person's life as comfortable as possible, but if God interfered in the problems of one person's life then he would have to do it with all of them, meaning that people are not facing the challenges based on their own judgement but on God's. Therefore God cannot interfere in the processes of life.

Hell

There must be two constants. Good and bad. We see both of them everyday. There must therefore be a source for each; we have established that the source of good is God, and therefore the source of badness must be the opposite of God, which God calls Satan. Now having said that God will not allow unworthy people into his universe, they must therefore be rejected from God's world and pass into the opposite world. This world must be 100% evil, as it is the opposite of God's world, which is 100% goodness. Since God created time in our universe, does not mean he created it the world of evil, why would he create anything there, he did however create that world in order for the trials of life to be created. However just because God created badness does not mean he is responsible for the bad things that happen in our world, he is not the enforcer of evil, he gave us freedom which means he has given the choice of whether to use evil or not, that is the freedom we have been given. Since there is no time in the world of badness, there is no 'before' and 'after' and therefore once one enters such a world the 'present' is constant, which is what is referred to in the bible as hell, the pain which never ends.

Why would a loving God send people to hell?

Does God send us to hell? We send ourselves to hell. Why shouldn't God refuse people entry to the world of God if they have not deserved it, that would mean that goodness stood for nothing. God does not sin for us, he does not put us in hell, he gives us freedom and on top of this helps us to overcome the temptations of evil. If you follow a certain thing, you will always end up at the source of it. If you follow a trail of sweet rappers you might find a man stuffing his face with sweets, but they'll be loads of sweets there. In a similar way if you follow evil you'll find a man stuffing his face with evil, and evil every where. Why shouldn't one end up at the source of what one follows? Isn't that logic?

God's world needn't have the same laws as ours. Things may be and not be, who knows? One thing we can not do is base the argument against the existence of God on our own logic, because surely the logic of a creator is superior to that of his creation? God is probably laughing at our logic.

If I am wrong, the worst that will happen to me is nothing, because the atheists will have been correct that God does not exist. However if I am right, I am looking at constant happiness. If the atheists are right, the best that can happen is nothing, because they do not believe in anything, but the worst that can happen is so bad I daren't even try to describe it. It never ends.

That all depends on whether I try and push forward with God's plan or not, I'm trying, why not join me.

Thank you.

David Stewart.

missus_gumby · 01-13-2003, 12:15 PM

Blimey! That's the longest preamble to Pascal's Wager I've ever seen. I reckon it's a World record!

Martin

Shadowy Man · 01-13-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
Many scientists believe that the universe began at the Big Bang. I ask them what triggered the Big Bang, and they often say, particles of gas colliding to produce an explosion.

You are obviously not speaking to the correct "scientists".

Defiant Heretic · 01-13-2003, 12:35 PM

Standard argument from design. "Everything needs to have been created. Except for God. Just because he's special." Or in this case, just because we're living an eternal present. But if that's the case, then there is no past, and cause and effect cease to have meaning. At which point the premise becomes invalid. Nice try, though.

Defiant Heretic · 01-13-2003, 12:41 PM

Even though this has nothing to do with your argument, I'd still like to comment on it.

Quote:

Life is so hard because God wants us to earn our way to his universe. There nothing that can happen to a person that God doesn't think they can handle. When an innocent child is run over by a car, there is no evidence that the child actually feels pain at the point of death, and if he or she does then it is simply a final test. If one can get through life without blaming or cursing the creator, or acting contrary to the creator's wishes, then one has proven that good can prevail over evil; and this being the point of creation, it is the gateway to the outer world.

If an innocent child is hit by a car, even though an omnipotent being could have prevented it (or just sent the kid and everyone else to heaven to begin with), it would prove that evil can, and did, prevail over good.

Silent Acorns · 01-13-2003, 01:09 PM

WRT Defiant Heretic's post:

Using David's logic, a muderer could plead:

"But I only poured gasoline on her and set her on fire to test her. If she suffered it was only because God wanted her to suffer, and if she didn't suffer then where is the crime?"

Philosoft · 01-13-2003, 01:30 PM

Philosophy attacks science head on... and loses. I hope, Mr. Stewart, that reasoning like that does not make or break your worldview.

Mageth · 01-13-2003, 01:33 PM

For example, a horse can only create (through birth) another horse, it is impossible for it to create anything bigger or more intelligent.

So no animal has ever had an offspring that was bigger or more intelligent than itself? I don't think so. I'm bigger than my mom and dad, and thanks to a fortuitous mixing of genes, perhaps a bit more intelligent.

Silent Acorns · 01-13-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
Now what happens to us after we die?

Common sense tells us that if one world exists inside another world, and the former world ends, whatever was in the former world is now in the latter world.

Are you caliming that when someone dies the entire world dies with him? Given the fact that my world still exists, I guess this means that no one has ever died.

Silent Acorns · 01-13-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidstewart
Praying to God

It is evident that prayer works because no matter how hard a situation, if you pray before hand, the result will never ever be as bad as you expected. One can only try this for oneself, but it is guarenteed to work.

Am I to assume then that no one was praying on those planes as they were flown into the World Trade Centre? Or would you say that it turned out better than expected?

01-13-2003, 11:49 AM	#1
davidstewart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 6	The Existence of God Before I begin, the following must be agreed, based on common sense. 1. If nothing is able to create something, then this law would be a constant, for example if a rock was created from thin air in 1962, it would still be possible for rocks to be created from thin air by no other interference, at any time henceforth and previous, unless a higher power had intervened. 2. The term 'creation' is dependent on the term 'time.' This is the case because if there was no time there would be no before and after, simply what is now, therefore meaning that whatever exists in the present will always be because there is no before and after. 3. Nothing can be created by anything less than itself, and anything that is created by one thing can only be, at the most, to the same standard as the creator. For example, a horse can only create (through birth) another horse, it is impossible for it to create anything bigger or more intelligent. 4. The laws of what we know as our universe do not need to be, and are almost certainly not, the laws of any possible higher universe. This is so because in order for the laws that we as humans follow to be created, the creator must follow laws which are superior to ours, as point 3 states that nothing can create anything higher than itself. Thus meaning that in order for one thing to be created, it must be created by a being either equal or higher than itself. Many scientists believe that the universe began at the Big Bang. I ask them what triggered the Big Bang, and they often say, particles of gas colliding to produce an explosion. I ask where these gas particles came from and logic would say from another source, then where did this source come from I ask. It goes on and on. One must therefore draw one of two conclusions (1) There has always been a change reaction of events leading to the creation of our universe, and this chain of reactions continues back through time and does not end. (2) The original source of the chain reaction must have been created by a higher power through the higher power's own choice. The problem with point one is simple. On the face of it, one could imagine a chain of events that lead back through time and never end, and the creation of our universe is simply another one of them. However several flaws emerge: How was the original source of the chain reaction created? It cannot just always have been there because the term 'creation' depends on the term 'time', as explained in note 2 above. Therefore since the law of time could not have been created by nothing, we must assume that in this scenario time has always existed. Since time has always existed we are then faced with the problem of 'before' and 'after', what was there before the original source and what was there after. One can say that after the collision of the original source that several other chain reactions followed, but when the point of what happened previously is raised, there is no answer but the theory that this source was created by a power greater than itself, stated in note 3. Since the original source was created by a power greater than itself, this power demands examination. The power must be: Able to make choices, as in the absence of a chain reaction nothing can exist. If there is nothing to begin a course of events, nothing can exist. Therefore the choice must have been made to create the original chain reaction source. With this in mind let us some up what we have found. The higher power must have, through the higher power's own will, created the original source of the chain reaction that was the beginning of the creaction of the universe. Now we have established that the higher power does exist. From now on I will refer to the higher power as God. Now that God has set of the chain reaction, based on the world in which we live, it is clear that the beings of our universe have the following objectives: (1) To persist in the face of the problems created by the chain reaction and to overcome them, with the help of God. (2) To continue the human race. God would not have created a world in which problems are created if he did not want us to face them, this is clear because he could easily have created a world that is perfect. However we must remember one thing, the world in which God lives must be perfect, there are no chain reactions to produce problems in God's universe, as he did not create any. Who created God? 'Creation' needs 'time.' Without the term 'time' there is no before and after. Through logic it is evident that a creator of this universe must have created everything that exists, this means therefore that God created what we know as 'time', meaning we have a concept of 'before' and 'after', however this does not have to be the case in God's universe, which is the original universe before the creation of our own. This is the argument for everlasting life, the fact that 'time' does not exist in God's universe and therefore what is now will always be, the term 'always' is not even relevent as the only term for such a universe is 'the present.' Now we know: (1) Who created the universe. (2) Who created the creator of the universe. Now what happens to us after we die? Common sense tells us that if one world exists inside another world, and the former world ends, whatever was in the former world is now in the latter world. For example if there are three pebbles in a balloon, and that balloon is inside a much larger balloon, and the smaller balloons bursts, then the pebbles are now in the larger balloon. Using this logic, we can see that if a being in the world created by God, ceases to be in that world, it must then be in the world of the creator, it cannot simply die because that would mean that God's world does not exist, but the above is evidence on the contrary. Praying to God It would seem logical that a creator would make some way of knowing what is going on in the world that was created. Car manufacturers do not make their cars with simply the engine and parts. They put information dials at the controls so that an observer can see exactly what the car is doing, for example the car's speed and power. In the same way, we can see that God has created a method by which he knows everything that is happening in the minds of his creation, but he has also created another important function, the ability for the creation to communicate with the creator. It is evident that prayer works because no matter how hard a situation, if you pray before hand, the result will never ever be as bad as you expected. One can only try this for oneself, but it is guarenteed to work. Whether it's walking past a gang at night or facing execution, the result will never be as bad as expected if one prays before hand. I can only speak from my own experiences, but I refuse to do so because I want others to try it for themselves. The reason life is so hard It is logical that those who live in a paradise without deserving it, are good for nothing. Even the angels in God's universe work. Even God works. It is therefore the case that God does not want anyone who doesn't deserve to live in perfection, to do so if he or she has not earned it. Would you give your child a sweet every hour if he or she did not help around the house or use manners? In the same way God's universe is open to all those who respect the fact that it is the original centre of goodness, and all those who have acted contrary to goodness without repentance cannot possibly live there forever, because they do not believe in the purpose of creation: To show that goodness will prevail over evil. Life is so hard because God wants us to earn our way to his universe. There nothing that can happen to a person that God doesn't think they can handle. When an innocent child is run over by a car, there is no evidence that the child actually feels pain at the point of death, and if he or she does then it is simply a final test. If one can get through life without blaming or cursing the creator, or acting contrary to the creator's wishes, then one has proven that good can prevail over evil; and this being the point of creation, it is the gateway to the outer world. God will not interfere in the problems that arise in this world because we have freedom. We have the freedom to eat as much as we like, to say what we like, and to do what we like. Whether it is killing a hedgehod or a person, it is the same principle because God will not interfere. What God will do, if it is appropriate, is make the final hours of the person's life as comfortable as possible, but if God interfered in the problems of one person's life then he would have to do it with all of them, meaning that people are not facing the challenges based on their own judgement but on God's. Therefore God cannot interfere in the processes of life. Hell There must be two constants. Good and bad. We see both of them everyday. There must therefore be a source for each; we have established that the source of good is God, and therefore the source of badness must be the opposite of God, which God calls Satan. Now having said that God will not allow unworthy people into his universe, they must therefore be rejected from God's world and pass into the opposite world. This world must be 100% evil, as it is the opposite of God's world, which is 100% goodness. Since God created time in our universe, does not mean he created it the world of evil, why would he create anything there, he did however create that world in order for the trials of life to be created. However just because God created badness does not mean he is responsible for the bad things that happen in our world, he is not the enforcer of evil, he gave us freedom which means he has given the choice of whether to use evil or not, that is the freedom we have been given. Since there is no time in the world of badness, there is no 'before' and 'after' and therefore once one enters such a world the 'present' is constant, which is what is referred to in the bible as hell, the pain which never ends. Why would a loving God send people to hell? Does God send us to hell? We send ourselves to hell. Why shouldn't God refuse people entry to the world of God if they have not deserved it, that would mean that goodness stood for nothing. God does not sin for us, he does not put us in hell, he gives us freedom and on top of this helps us to overcome the temptations of evil. If you follow a certain thing, you will always end up at the source of it. If you follow a trail of sweet rappers you might find a man stuffing his face with sweets, but they'll be loads of sweets there. In a similar way if you follow evil you'll find a man stuffing his face with evil, and evil every where. Why shouldn't one end up at the source of what one follows? Isn't that logic? God's world needn't have the same laws as ours. Things may be and not be, who knows? One thing we can not do is base the argument against the existence of God on our own logic, because surely the logic of a creator is superior to that of his creation? God is probably laughing at our logic. If I am wrong, the worst that will happen to me is nothing, because the atheists will have been correct that God does not exist. However if I am right, I am looking at constant happiness. If the atheists are right, the best that can happen is nothing, because they do not believe in anything, but the worst that can happen is so bad I daren't even try to describe it. It never ends. That all depends on whether I try and push forward with God's plan or not, I'm trying, why not join me. Thank you. David Stewart.

01-13-2003, 01:30 PM	#7
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Again? Philosophy attacks science head on... and loses. I hope, Mr. Stewart, that reasoning like that does not make or break your worldview.

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01-13-2003, 12:15 PM	#2
missus_gumby Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	Blimey! That's the longest preamble to Pascal's Wager I've ever seen. I reckon it's a World record! Martin

01-13-2003, 12:35 PM	#4
Defiant Heretic Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,288	Standard argument from design. "Everything needs to have been created. Except for God. Just because he's special." Or in this case, just because we're living an eternal present. But if that's the case, then there is no past, and cause and effect cease to have meaning. At which point the premise becomes invalid. Nice try, though.

01-13-2003, 01:09 PM	#6
Silent Acorns Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SW 31 52 24W4 Posts: 1,508	WRT Defiant Heretic's post: Using David's logic, a muderer could plead: "But I only poured gasoline on her and set her on fire to test her. If she suffered it was only because God wanted her to suffer, and if she didn't suffer then where is the crime?"

01-13-2003, 01:33 PM	#8
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	For example, a horse can only create (through birth) another horse, it is impossible for it to create anything bigger or more intelligent. So no animal has ever had an offspring that was bigger or more intelligent than itself? I don't think so. I'm bigger than my mom and dad, and thanks to a fortuitous mixing of genes, perhaps a bit more intelligent.

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